[ARTICLE] Toxic Positivity: When Nice Isn't Kind
A topic near and dear to my heart. Enjoy the free article on Patreon!
https://www.patreon.com/posts/82300140
https://www.patreon.com/posts/82300140
https://www.patreon.com/posts/82300140
https://www.patreon.com/posts/82300140
https://www.patreon.com/posts/82300140
https://www.patreon.com/posts/82300140
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This article and story really spoke to me, as a rather brutally honest person I have found myself in the same situation where I question the intent of such a random "compliment" from a stranger. (though sadly I was not as polite as you)
To me such a compliment is just empty words said by someone wishing for attention. This coming from a jaded person but I did like to read your perspective on this.
To me such a compliment is just empty words said by someone wishing for attention. This coming from a jaded person but I did like to read your perspective on this.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I totally understand how easy it can be to fall into cynicism.
Direct communication is hard, but social niceties are just so draining, so I get it. (Although full disclosure I am autistic so there is that part of things.)
Your perspective resonates with me.
Your perspective resonates with me.
Thank you for resonating. I'm not diagnosed, but it was expected I could very well be on the spectrum, myself. After trying so hard to gain social and cultural fluency, I just wanna do well but whatever space I'm in.
... Well I didn't want to outright say that, but. It definitely did ping some of those thoughts I've gone through figuring this all out too. So you're not alone. 💜
Ha! It is good to be understood. I'm not one of those people bothered by someone seeing a familiar behaviour in me. I do appreciate it. <3
Yeah, but allistic folk tend to get weird about it. So many unexplained social rules you're expected to just know without literally anyone telling you it exists. Or why for that matter. That's what still gets to me.
I thought this was a pretty nice article. I guess I typically wouldn't be in the place to be such inquisitive about a positive statement, for example.
Glad you think so! I'm trying to structure a thought experiment to share how my thought process works in a linear fashion.
Example: Imagine I wrote you a DM saying "hi, how r u". What can we assume about the person based on their avatar, user name, what site the message was sent on, and exactly how they typed? All that is info that contributes to a potential reality. It might be nice to see where everyone's assumptions are and how they choose to proceed in that interaction.
Example: Imagine I wrote you a DM saying "hi, how r u". What can we assume about the person based on their avatar, user name, what site the message was sent on, and exactly how they typed? All that is info that contributes to a potential reality. It might be nice to see where everyone's assumptions are and how they choose to proceed in that interaction.
Thanks for sharing this on FA, I haven't heard of you in a while.
The topic is somewhat more relevant these days since even though the toxic positivity stuff is more of an American culture thing, it has leaked over here as well now. When everything needs to be positive, the whole point of positivity loses purpose, you no longer know what is genuine and that is awful. I've also noticed it that usually the people who desire attention often come across with these complimenting comments, which usually push me away from them. People declaring "I have safe space here" rather sounds like it'll be a trap where you are expected to give them attention, and so forth.
I don't personally think you can love everyone around you however, but this might be a language barrier thing, "love" is really strong word in Finnish. I think you can care about everyone's wellbeing in your surrounding and desire the best possible life for them, because in return that means you personally thrive better (egg and chicken situation here, is it actually selfish then, but let's not go there). Therefor hearing comments like "you are loved" feels more like a mockery, a random person online cannot "love" me and there is also no general entity that "loves" me either, claiming so out of the blue is a lie. The comment potentially feels worse the less people there are that actually care about you, because hearing the lie reminds of the situation of being unloved by others.
I do think saying nice things is important, and compliments are crucial for people to have strength to continue doing what they're doing, but they do have to come from somewhere real. A better way to spread positivity is to be personal about it, it might not always land perfectly but it when it does it will mean something, rather than some empty general statements.
The topic is somewhat more relevant these days since even though the toxic positivity stuff is more of an American culture thing, it has leaked over here as well now. When everything needs to be positive, the whole point of positivity loses purpose, you no longer know what is genuine and that is awful. I've also noticed it that usually the people who desire attention often come across with these complimenting comments, which usually push me away from them. People declaring "I have safe space here" rather sounds like it'll be a trap where you are expected to give them attention, and so forth.
I don't personally think you can love everyone around you however, but this might be a language barrier thing, "love" is really strong word in Finnish. I think you can care about everyone's wellbeing in your surrounding and desire the best possible life for them, because in return that means you personally thrive better (egg and chicken situation here, is it actually selfish then, but let's not go there). Therefor hearing comments like "you are loved" feels more like a mockery, a random person online cannot "love" me and there is also no general entity that "loves" me either, claiming so out of the blue is a lie. The comment potentially feels worse the less people there are that actually care about you, because hearing the lie reminds of the situation of being unloved by others.
I do think saying nice things is important, and compliments are crucial for people to have strength to continue doing what they're doing, but they do have to come from somewhere real. A better way to spread positivity is to be personal about it, it might not always land perfectly but it when it does it will mean something, rather than some empty general statements.
Neo, always a pleasure! So grateful for your message.
This is the second response so far including cultural differences in language, something you know I'm always down to talk about! I felt it would distract from this article, but it's so significant it deserves its own dedicated writing. It feels so uncanny to come from an American perspective, not explicitly state my cultural bias, but also accepting the legitimacy of our cultural exporting of everything from smiles to our own fucky pursuit of social capital into other countries.
I love hearing how you interact with the concept of "love" in a tangible way, since that's another thing my writing here approached without detailing. I've loved what little I've learned about the Finnish language and culture so far through meeting folks online and off. Because my philosophy is build off that "everyone's wellbeing in your surrounding and desire the best possible life" take on what love could be, it's easy for me to go "Fuck it, I'll love everyone". And totally agreed about it making "You are loved :3" feel like a mockery. This reminds me of Germans answering "How are you?" in earnest when Americans normally don't want to know the answer when they ask you.
Compliments are something I still have to learn a lot about. IIRC Russians don't use "please" and "thank you" as they tend to be used in the Anglosphere, since something that should be done shouldn't be dressed in politeness. And yet, I still love those little pings of appreciation for my efforts being rewarded. The three adults in our house all interface with that concept differently too, despite us all being from the US.
Good shit, Neo. I hope we get to catch up soon. Maybe at EF? c:
This is the second response so far including cultural differences in language, something you know I'm always down to talk about! I felt it would distract from this article, but it's so significant it deserves its own dedicated writing. It feels so uncanny to come from an American perspective, not explicitly state my cultural bias, but also accepting the legitimacy of our cultural exporting of everything from smiles to our own fucky pursuit of social capital into other countries.
I love hearing how you interact with the concept of "love" in a tangible way, since that's another thing my writing here approached without detailing. I've loved what little I've learned about the Finnish language and culture so far through meeting folks online and off. Because my philosophy is build off that "everyone's wellbeing in your surrounding and desire the best possible life" take on what love could be, it's easy for me to go "Fuck it, I'll love everyone". And totally agreed about it making "You are loved :3" feel like a mockery. This reminds me of Germans answering "How are you?" in earnest when Americans normally don't want to know the answer when they ask you.
Compliments are something I still have to learn a lot about. IIRC Russians don't use "please" and "thank you" as they tend to be used in the Anglosphere, since something that should be done shouldn't be dressed in politeness. And yet, I still love those little pings of appreciation for my efforts being rewarded. The three adults in our house all interface with that concept differently too, despite us all being from the US.
Good shit, Neo. I hope we get to catch up soon. Maybe at EF? c:
In Finnish if we use words akin to "please" and "thank you" it's more likely the context is sarcastic, in past you were also expected to use specifically polite language when talking to people of higher status, I like to think out of fear because it'd be unfortunate if they got butthurt from not having everything sugar coated. But those fancy words are also similar to traits of toxic positivity, they're just kinda there without an immediate purpose, other than to be nice in a generalized way. The younger generation is more leaning towards the americanized way of requiring everyone to be nicey nice, even if you don't mean it. Irl you can catch it whenever people are genuine or not because your tone subconsciously goes somewhere without control, but I don't like indirect speech where you're supposed to focus on every gestural and tonal detail (one only has so much energy to focus on everything around).
Unfortunately I'm not making it to EF this year, since the con is too expensive, but if you'll ever visit NFC I'll be guaranteed to be there again. Hoping the next EF will be better in that regard. I've started to focus on smaller cons, there's typically more time to actually be with others and the dealers dens are short but overall more profitable & fun.
Unfortunately I'm not making it to EF this year, since the con is too expensive, but if you'll ever visit NFC I'll be guaranteed to be there again. Hoping the next EF will be better in that regard. I've started to focus on smaller cons, there's typically more time to actually be with others and the dealers dens are short but overall more profitable & fun.
Bummed that I'll be missing you at EF, but understandable. Heard great things about NFC, too.
I got to highlight your insights in my stream a couple days ago. Thanks for taking the time to share them here. <3
I got to highlight your insights in my stream a couple days ago. Thanks for taking the time to share them here. <3
I listened to the (second?) vod (I noticed there was another after). Though I don't have any thoughts now (I did during listening but since it was yesterday they have now escaped my head), it was nice to listen to and glad it was recorded so I could enjoy it at my day time. I like that you're back at doing something like this again (unless I've just missed out on previous stuff for a very long time).
I am sorry to be that guy, but I really disliked your article here. It started out with a super interesting premise that I immediately feel connected with, which is the concept of being excessively positive to a point of trivializing positivity. I immediately agreed with the first paragraph. However, as I continued reading, I couldn't help but perceive a tone that came across as somewhat paternalistic and presumptuous in many ways, and I felt the initial topic was lost in the process.
Please don't take it as a personal attack, I just felt like giving you an honest feedback. For what's worth I'm still a fan of your art and I'm glad that you explored this topic anyway.
(I'm willing to elaborate to anyone who wants me to, as long as we keep it civil)
Please don't take it as a personal attack, I just felt like giving you an honest feedback. For what's worth I'm still a fan of your art and I'm glad that you explored this topic anyway.
(I'm willing to elaborate to anyone who wants me to, as long as we keep it civil)
Sure, I wouldn't mind hearing more at all. It's impossible to hit a tone and cadence that suits everyone, but the constructive criticisms I've heard so far are about what you've mentioned. It's an article in a larger body and publishing schedule, so keeping that in mind, feel free to share what you think would have improved it.
(Actually, the critiques have yet to include "paternalistic" as an issue, and I haven't had "presumptuous" put in a way that was constructive. But yes, I absolutely want to know how it could be improved!)
(Actually, the critiques have yet to include "paternalistic" as an issue, and I haven't had "presumptuous" put in a way that was constructive. But yes, I absolutely want to know how it could be improved!)
Alright. It turned out longer than I anticipated. Just letting you know that I want my criticism to be helpful and constructive and if in any moment it seems i'm just insulting you it's not my intention. Be warned though that a portion of that criticism is aimed at you personally and you might find that very annoying or downright angering. Again, it's not my intention to annoy you, it might just be a byproduct.
Also grammatical errors will be present, English is not my first language.
Like I said, the introduction of your article seemed incredibly promising to me. I feel that sometimes an excess of positivity sounds dull and artificial and it creates the issues you've already described.
Then suddenly it takes a very condescending turn from your part:
"It’s a safe bet that Wuffsky lives an unsatisfying life outside of his time in Furry spaces. If he has a job, it’s probably not thrilling. He probably doesn’t have a lot of connections tying him to a real community. He’s probably just really excited to get some fun and color in his life. If he ever does get his fursuit, it will probably be with the intention to be more outgoing as a person while also making people smile. He’ll probably have fun. He’ll probably become more outgoing. He probably will make someone smile! None of that is bad, in and of itself. It’s also not everything."
Why do you assume this person have an unsatisfying life? Why did you assume that he even had a "bullshit job and homelife"? Is this the first guy who told you all of these things via DM or is this the second one who told you about the try everything list?
Starting from these inputs, you've sculpted a very specific and defined Wuffsky. This character is indifferent towards world problems, superficial, shallow. You portray him as clueless, closeted and destined to suffer because he doesn't accept opening up to a cruel world.
This kind of person definitely exists. But I think it's a quite a stretch to associate all of this to a premise of showing excessive optimism and positivity.
And now for what it might seem like a personal attack. Again, I don't want to insult you and I don't know you but I'd like to tell you what I've perceived from your article:
It feels like you've created this extremely negative caricature to assume the role of a wise tutor that can show his readers how that pathetic creature can be commiserated and -perhaps- educated. He's not aware like you are of all those world issues, or maybe he's ignoring them!
I can understand how excessive positivity might seem like being clueless. Hell, I'd think the same on a first glance probably. I wouldn't write it a way it seems like the logical conclusion though.
Afterwards you mostly treat this character with extreme condescension. He needs love, he needs his fursuit because he would be crushed by the awareness of how harsh the world is. That's wat I meant with paternalism and presumptuousness.
The paragraph about NPCs bothered me a lot when I first read it because it sounded like you were describing yourself as an enlightened "player" that found the secret of unlocking the good path of penetrating deep into people's hearts by rejecting shallow positivity and confronting them directly. After reading it again I still have that underlying feeling but ultimately I can agree with you that in some circumstances this can be a good method of dealing with toxic positivity. Your DM interaction showed that you do care and it was polite and clean.
On that note though, I would like to add something else: I personally don't think this method of investigating their positivity is a "blue path" for people. It's just a different way of dealing with a stranger online. For some people "formal" things like small talk or asking how are you as a conversation opener instead of an inquiry into your current happiness are poison and seem fake and dull (understandably so). For many others they're frills and decorations to start a normal social interaction, and the true deep connection will be in another context. It's like that with most of my IRL friends. Humans are not efficient machines and I personally appreciate the value in that.
It's why I've found it pretty eye-rolling to logically contradict a sentence like "hey sexy people". If someone told me that I have no way of exactly knowing the degree of sexual attraction for each partecipant I would simply assume this person is trying really hard to appear smart.
In short, I like your idea of challenging toxic positivity in order to find what's underneath. The way you've extrapolated this premise into the rest of the article sounded like -despite what you wrote- definitely was an attempt to elevate yourself.
These are just my personal opinions on why I've found this specific aspect of your article distasteful. I understand that despite asking for being civil I've been quite aggressive with my statements, but honestly I haven't found other ways to convey all of this more diplomatically. I hope it's enough.
Also grammatical errors will be present, English is not my first language.
Like I said, the introduction of your article seemed incredibly promising to me. I feel that sometimes an excess of positivity sounds dull and artificial and it creates the issues you've already described.
Then suddenly it takes a very condescending turn from your part:
"It’s a safe bet that Wuffsky lives an unsatisfying life outside of his time in Furry spaces. If he has a job, it’s probably not thrilling. He probably doesn’t have a lot of connections tying him to a real community. He’s probably just really excited to get some fun and color in his life. If he ever does get his fursuit, it will probably be with the intention to be more outgoing as a person while also making people smile. He’ll probably have fun. He’ll probably become more outgoing. He probably will make someone smile! None of that is bad, in and of itself. It’s also not everything."
Why do you assume this person have an unsatisfying life? Why did you assume that he even had a "bullshit job and homelife"? Is this the first guy who told you all of these things via DM or is this the second one who told you about the try everything list?
Starting from these inputs, you've sculpted a very specific and defined Wuffsky. This character is indifferent towards world problems, superficial, shallow. You portray him as clueless, closeted and destined to suffer because he doesn't accept opening up to a cruel world.
This kind of person definitely exists. But I think it's a quite a stretch to associate all of this to a premise of showing excessive optimism and positivity.
And now for what it might seem like a personal attack. Again, I don't want to insult you and I don't know you but I'd like to tell you what I've perceived from your article:
It feels like you've created this extremely negative caricature to assume the role of a wise tutor that can show his readers how that pathetic creature can be commiserated and -perhaps- educated. He's not aware like you are of all those world issues, or maybe he's ignoring them!
I can understand how excessive positivity might seem like being clueless. Hell, I'd think the same on a first glance probably. I wouldn't write it a way it seems like the logical conclusion though.
Afterwards you mostly treat this character with extreme condescension. He needs love, he needs his fursuit because he would be crushed by the awareness of how harsh the world is. That's wat I meant with paternalism and presumptuousness.
The paragraph about NPCs bothered me a lot when I first read it because it sounded like you were describing yourself as an enlightened "player" that found the secret of unlocking the good path of penetrating deep into people's hearts by rejecting shallow positivity and confronting them directly. After reading it again I still have that underlying feeling but ultimately I can agree with you that in some circumstances this can be a good method of dealing with toxic positivity. Your DM interaction showed that you do care and it was polite and clean.
On that note though, I would like to add something else: I personally don't think this method of investigating their positivity is a "blue path" for people. It's just a different way of dealing with a stranger online. For some people "formal" things like small talk or asking how are you as a conversation opener instead of an inquiry into your current happiness are poison and seem fake and dull (understandably so). For many others they're frills and decorations to start a normal social interaction, and the true deep connection will be in another context. It's like that with most of my IRL friends. Humans are not efficient machines and I personally appreciate the value in that.
It's why I've found it pretty eye-rolling to logically contradict a sentence like "hey sexy people". If someone told me that I have no way of exactly knowing the degree of sexual attraction for each partecipant I would simply assume this person is trying really hard to appear smart.
In short, I like your idea of challenging toxic positivity in order to find what's underneath. The way you've extrapolated this premise into the rest of the article sounded like -despite what you wrote- definitely was an attempt to elevate yourself.
These are just my personal opinions on why I've found this specific aspect of your article distasteful. I understand that despite asking for being civil I've been quite aggressive with my statements, but honestly I haven't found other ways to convey all of this more diplomatically. I hope it's enough.
And thanks for weighing in, Ophryon.
I'll be dropping a separate response in a sec.
I'll be dropping a separate response in a sec.
My sincerest thanks for taking the time to write that down. I'm especially grateful for this writing, because others will undoubtedly feel as you have, but they’ll likely not share it due to the seeming inevitability of a bad-faith online actor, or the reality that this is a gamble on my own ability to accept criticism. To me, it’s obvious this isn’t a personal attack, but is instead both of us experiencing each other through this writing as a fulcrum. You’ve made assumptions about me, and I’m also inevitably assuming about you. In turn, I hope nothing I’ve written comes off as a personal attack. Thanks for the trust.
Yours is the kind of perspective that I will rarely ever experience. The only other time I heard it so clearly articulated was when I directly asked a then-friend why they stopped showing up to my talks (this was years ago, before my partner and I did this kind of work together). They also felt like I was placing myself on a pedestal, creating a masturbatory atmosphere with an audience, dressing my observations as challenging or profound when they were neither. They felt I hadn’t realized that there are consequences to my actions, so I shouldn’t just casually say what I will (that’s the funniest part, if you know me). I can't speak to your country or language of origin (though I find those to be useful pieces of information), but this critique happened between American furry cons and Eurofurence in Berlin. At the time, I had barely left the Midwestern US, while this person came from a Scandinavian family. The two of us treated conventions (and relationships, I’ve noticed) in completely different ways, as evidenced by our continued distance and my eventual lack of trust in him.
I can’t know where you’re from or what your life is like, but I would challenge you to imagine a life where you’ve experienced hundreds, if not thousands, of the Wuffsky archetype, in very obvious ways. You’ve lived as one, but you’ve also grown up with them, worked with them in the service industry, and continue to see them online. Now, imagine yourself as a professional creative whose life necessitates meeting hundreds of thousands of people. You live in the richest country in the world, but to get to the conventions you enjoy, you have to drive through thousands of miles of food deserts and unsafe territories built on a brief but bloody history most people don’t know. Affording this view out your car window is a luxury. You aren’t in your small town anymore. Growing up, they called you “the artistic one”, a label that couldn’t mean less in your current city and your online communities. Raised in an ethnic and religious majority, full of all kinds of repression, you felt belonging only at the expense of who you are, and so living the most honest life possible meant nearly no ties remain to your blood family, nor land you grew up on. You’re halfway through your third decade, and you’re far away from where you started. You’ve since attended over 80 furry conventions, many meetups, and tens of other conventions for professional creatives. Against the odds, you’re not only surviving as a professional creative, but you’re helping other people survive their own art careers, and this lead to helping build support networks for folks regardless of location or profession. In the meanwhile, you’ve been in several multicultural relationships, continue to navigate the political complexities of the world around you, and are constantly learning new dimensions of your own ignorance towards other cultures and disciplines. You choose to take a posture of curiosity and compassion towards others, but also towards yourself, as you learn new ways in which you are, frankly, a fucking dumbass.
Imagine this context, and then imagine reducing the article written to somebody wanting to sound smart, to have an audience where they elevate themself where others can see it. I can’t take it as a personal attack because it’s such a silly misrepresentation of my reality. I’m responsible for this misrepresentation--it was my words you read, after all--but your inability to imagine another reality also plays a role here.
Because of this life I live, it is impossible to not notice these patterns in human behaviour. I don’t need to perfectly guess someone’s history in a brief interaction, but more often than not, certain actions plug into certain contexts that I’ve seen play out so many times, that in some cases, it’s worth writing down. So when you ask me, “Why do you assume this person has a bullshit job and a homelife”? It’s because they do. I’m referring to one of the thousands of people I’ve met in exactly this position. Like, I flag the assumption at the beginning, do my homework, and confirm the Wuffsky status. Again, I was a Wuffsky. To your credit, I’ve met people who look like Wuffskies who actually aren’t, but that’s exceedingly rare. So, where you see this as elevating myself to the role of a parent or a superior player in a game, instead I see myself as connected to someone who, most likely, feels similarly to how myself and many others have felt. And if I’ve been somewhere they haven’t and I’m more aware of their own context than they are, that’s experience. I’m more comfortable around people who challenge me than I am being the only one challenging. Is that elevating my experience above others? If I’m a 16-year-old conservative Christian in Ohio, a transphobe, a xenophobe, an American Exceptionalist, and I’m doing my own self-aggrandizing, I deserve to be knocked off my pedestal. If you project labels of “trying to appear smart”, “self-elevating”, “patronizing” to someone critically addressing said 16-year-old, what you are not doing is considering their difference in context (especially highlighting their shared history), and what accountability and/or intentions the more experienced person has to the less experienced person. I’m doing this because I’m noticing so many fucked up things around me that I can’t leave accountability and intimacy to chance.
Richard Feynman is not patronizing for simplifying metaphysics in basic ways. He’s using basic illustrations as a learning tool. And he’s right, if you can’t explain a concept to a child, you don’t understand it as well as you could. I wish I was as good at educating as he is, but he’s just an inspiration. Still, we both grapple with immense complexities in our respective fields to send the most effective message as possible to the lowest common denominator. It’s inevitable you will see this as self-aggrandizing, because you read an article without living the experiences that would have made reading and sharing it valuable.
This is, again, why your words are so valuable to me, and why I know your own perspective isn’t a personal attack. It makes complete sense how this can seem like “extremely negative caricature to assume the role of a wise tutor that can show his readers how that pathetic creature can be commiserated and -perhaps- educated”. God, I wish you were right. Unfortunately, this is an immense problem that the dressings of furry can make all the more prevalent. I’ve just been here longer and paying attention with more intensity than most people tend to. I miss a lot, but I also notice a lot. I’m not saying this to inflate my own self image, but I have to believe the many people who have observed this in me over the years. I really do care more and have changed more than the average person. It makes me good at some things and awful at other things.
So, where you would eye-roll at my response to “Hey sexy people”, I would look at the kind of “good vibes only” spaces where I continuously see destructive tendencies play out the moment real conflict arises. I’ve seen friends have to rearrange their lives over these dynamics enough times, that it’s no longer a stretch for me to correlate certain rhythms of communication with certain consequences. You see this as an unfair caricature, because your life hasn’t taught you how big this problem is, and you don’t get to see my DMs and notifications full of people thanking me for articulating something that either applied to themselves or their loved ones. I look at that and go, “Cool, the writing was useful,” but I’m still shortsighted in many other ways. This writing isn’t good enough. It’s part of a larger strategy to convince people that their own lives, and others too, are worth cultivating deeper connections. And we need to do this sooner rather than later, even WRT cultural differences.
I’ve had to navigate many cultural frills (another useful wording from you I appreciate) to build relationships, learn new things, or fulfill personal requests. In different cultures and levels of anglicization, I’ve been in situations where my overstepping small-talk had some serious unintended consequences. It’s why I might compliment someone on their jewelry here in the US, but I would not do that in Iran (because I don’t want a stranger giving me their jewelry). Can frills lead to substantial interactions? Sure. But you are talking about a general way of humans interacting. I am not. I am talking about that AS WELL AS being at a dealer table or leading a group chat or livestream especially within the furry community. We can strip away a few variables here when we keep in mind that the medium is the message, and this case the medium is a rainbow-washed Amazon affiliate platform largely catering to Gamers™. As a fellow inefficient human, I enjoy that nuance too. AND I am not interested in catering to certain flavours of superficial communication in hopes of a payoff of depth later. Not in my streams, and not at my table. I need to set a precedent on the front-end that I expect certain things from anyone showing up in my livechat, in my discord, and in my life. I have zero regrets about how I’ve managed this so far, because I’ve always done the best I can, and I take constructive criticisms seriously. If anyone thinks I just like the smell of my own farts, they clearly don’t know me. And in my experience, those rare few who think I’m self-aggrandizing or seeking out this power imbalance, even after spending a lot of time with me, they are doing me a huge favor by ghosting, blocking, or otherwise leaving me. Those kinds of people inevitably don’t have the priorities I have, and while I hope whatever the hell they’re building in their own spaces is better than what I have, I’ve yet to be impressed. I wish them well, though. I can’t be the right fit for everyone, and we need a lot of good spaces right now.
I woke up early enough to dedicate time to writing this answer down, but unfortunately my schedule doesn’t always give me this kind of opportunity. Because of the nuanced and sensitive nature of this inquiry, as well as where it was written, I felt it appropriate to get down a public answer in writing. I don’t expect I’ll be able to write a longer second response, but if you move inquiries to my Twitch streams, it’s my dedicated space to engage with others. (This morning's stream was about your comment and my response, actually.) If your preference is to step back and not know me better, sticking only to the art, I also understand. But for what it’s worth, you seem like the kind of person I’d like to get to know better. Thanks again for all the trust that went into your feedback. Hope this message finds you well. <3
Yours is the kind of perspective that I will rarely ever experience. The only other time I heard it so clearly articulated was when I directly asked a then-friend why they stopped showing up to my talks (this was years ago, before my partner and I did this kind of work together). They also felt like I was placing myself on a pedestal, creating a masturbatory atmosphere with an audience, dressing my observations as challenging or profound when they were neither. They felt I hadn’t realized that there are consequences to my actions, so I shouldn’t just casually say what I will (that’s the funniest part, if you know me). I can't speak to your country or language of origin (though I find those to be useful pieces of information), but this critique happened between American furry cons and Eurofurence in Berlin. At the time, I had barely left the Midwestern US, while this person came from a Scandinavian family. The two of us treated conventions (and relationships, I’ve noticed) in completely different ways, as evidenced by our continued distance and my eventual lack of trust in him.
I can’t know where you’re from or what your life is like, but I would challenge you to imagine a life where you’ve experienced hundreds, if not thousands, of the Wuffsky archetype, in very obvious ways. You’ve lived as one, but you’ve also grown up with them, worked with them in the service industry, and continue to see them online. Now, imagine yourself as a professional creative whose life necessitates meeting hundreds of thousands of people. You live in the richest country in the world, but to get to the conventions you enjoy, you have to drive through thousands of miles of food deserts and unsafe territories built on a brief but bloody history most people don’t know. Affording this view out your car window is a luxury. You aren’t in your small town anymore. Growing up, they called you “the artistic one”, a label that couldn’t mean less in your current city and your online communities. Raised in an ethnic and religious majority, full of all kinds of repression, you felt belonging only at the expense of who you are, and so living the most honest life possible meant nearly no ties remain to your blood family, nor land you grew up on. You’re halfway through your third decade, and you’re far away from where you started. You’ve since attended over 80 furry conventions, many meetups, and tens of other conventions for professional creatives. Against the odds, you’re not only surviving as a professional creative, but you’re helping other people survive their own art careers, and this lead to helping build support networks for folks regardless of location or profession. In the meanwhile, you’ve been in several multicultural relationships, continue to navigate the political complexities of the world around you, and are constantly learning new dimensions of your own ignorance towards other cultures and disciplines. You choose to take a posture of curiosity and compassion towards others, but also towards yourself, as you learn new ways in which you are, frankly, a fucking dumbass.
Imagine this context, and then imagine reducing the article written to somebody wanting to sound smart, to have an audience where they elevate themself where others can see it. I can’t take it as a personal attack because it’s such a silly misrepresentation of my reality. I’m responsible for this misrepresentation--it was my words you read, after all--but your inability to imagine another reality also plays a role here.
Because of this life I live, it is impossible to not notice these patterns in human behaviour. I don’t need to perfectly guess someone’s history in a brief interaction, but more often than not, certain actions plug into certain contexts that I’ve seen play out so many times, that in some cases, it’s worth writing down. So when you ask me, “Why do you assume this person has a bullshit job and a homelife”? It’s because they do. I’m referring to one of the thousands of people I’ve met in exactly this position. Like, I flag the assumption at the beginning, do my homework, and confirm the Wuffsky status. Again, I was a Wuffsky. To your credit, I’ve met people who look like Wuffskies who actually aren’t, but that’s exceedingly rare. So, where you see this as elevating myself to the role of a parent or a superior player in a game, instead I see myself as connected to someone who, most likely, feels similarly to how myself and many others have felt. And if I’ve been somewhere they haven’t and I’m more aware of their own context than they are, that’s experience. I’m more comfortable around people who challenge me than I am being the only one challenging. Is that elevating my experience above others? If I’m a 16-year-old conservative Christian in Ohio, a transphobe, a xenophobe, an American Exceptionalist, and I’m doing my own self-aggrandizing, I deserve to be knocked off my pedestal. If you project labels of “trying to appear smart”, “self-elevating”, “patronizing” to someone critically addressing said 16-year-old, what you are not doing is considering their difference in context (especially highlighting their shared history), and what accountability and/or intentions the more experienced person has to the less experienced person. I’m doing this because I’m noticing so many fucked up things around me that I can’t leave accountability and intimacy to chance.
Richard Feynman is not patronizing for simplifying metaphysics in basic ways. He’s using basic illustrations as a learning tool. And he’s right, if you can’t explain a concept to a child, you don’t understand it as well as you could. I wish I was as good at educating as he is, but he’s just an inspiration. Still, we both grapple with immense complexities in our respective fields to send the most effective message as possible to the lowest common denominator. It’s inevitable you will see this as self-aggrandizing, because you read an article without living the experiences that would have made reading and sharing it valuable.
This is, again, why your words are so valuable to me, and why I know your own perspective isn’t a personal attack. It makes complete sense how this can seem like “extremely negative caricature to assume the role of a wise tutor that can show his readers how that pathetic creature can be commiserated and -perhaps- educated”. God, I wish you were right. Unfortunately, this is an immense problem that the dressings of furry can make all the more prevalent. I’ve just been here longer and paying attention with more intensity than most people tend to. I miss a lot, but I also notice a lot. I’m not saying this to inflate my own self image, but I have to believe the many people who have observed this in me over the years. I really do care more and have changed more than the average person. It makes me good at some things and awful at other things.
So, where you would eye-roll at my response to “Hey sexy people”, I would look at the kind of “good vibes only” spaces where I continuously see destructive tendencies play out the moment real conflict arises. I’ve seen friends have to rearrange their lives over these dynamics enough times, that it’s no longer a stretch for me to correlate certain rhythms of communication with certain consequences. You see this as an unfair caricature, because your life hasn’t taught you how big this problem is, and you don’t get to see my DMs and notifications full of people thanking me for articulating something that either applied to themselves or their loved ones. I look at that and go, “Cool, the writing was useful,” but I’m still shortsighted in many other ways. This writing isn’t good enough. It’s part of a larger strategy to convince people that their own lives, and others too, are worth cultivating deeper connections. And we need to do this sooner rather than later, even WRT cultural differences.
I’ve had to navigate many cultural frills (another useful wording from you I appreciate) to build relationships, learn new things, or fulfill personal requests. In different cultures and levels of anglicization, I’ve been in situations where my overstepping small-talk had some serious unintended consequences. It’s why I might compliment someone on their jewelry here in the US, but I would not do that in Iran (because I don’t want a stranger giving me their jewelry). Can frills lead to substantial interactions? Sure. But you are talking about a general way of humans interacting. I am not. I am talking about that AS WELL AS being at a dealer table or leading a group chat or livestream especially within the furry community. We can strip away a few variables here when we keep in mind that the medium is the message, and this case the medium is a rainbow-washed Amazon affiliate platform largely catering to Gamers™. As a fellow inefficient human, I enjoy that nuance too. AND I am not interested in catering to certain flavours of superficial communication in hopes of a payoff of depth later. Not in my streams, and not at my table. I need to set a precedent on the front-end that I expect certain things from anyone showing up in my livechat, in my discord, and in my life. I have zero regrets about how I’ve managed this so far, because I’ve always done the best I can, and I take constructive criticisms seriously. If anyone thinks I just like the smell of my own farts, they clearly don’t know me. And in my experience, those rare few who think I’m self-aggrandizing or seeking out this power imbalance, even after spending a lot of time with me, they are doing me a huge favor by ghosting, blocking, or otherwise leaving me. Those kinds of people inevitably don’t have the priorities I have, and while I hope whatever the hell they’re building in their own spaces is better than what I have, I’ve yet to be impressed. I wish them well, though. I can’t be the right fit for everyone, and we need a lot of good spaces right now.
I woke up early enough to dedicate time to writing this answer down, but unfortunately my schedule doesn’t always give me this kind of opportunity. Because of the nuanced and sensitive nature of this inquiry, as well as where it was written, I felt it appropriate to get down a public answer in writing. I don’t expect I’ll be able to write a longer second response, but if you move inquiries to my Twitch streams, it’s my dedicated space to engage with others. (This morning's stream was about your comment and my response, actually.) If your preference is to step back and not know me better, sticking only to the art, I also understand. But for what it’s worth, you seem like the kind of person I’d like to get to know better. Thanks again for all the trust that went into your feedback. Hope this message finds you well. <3
Hey, thanks for the detailed answer! I'll answer in sections trying to be as short as possible.
Regarding your life experiences:
I will do two things here- first of all I'll acknowledge that this is/was a huge part of your life and I didn't know about that. It makes more sense now that you're making these assumptions so vehemently. Which brings me to the second thing:
"Imagine this context, and then imagine reducing the article written to somebody wanting to sound smart, to have an audience where they elevate themself where others can see it. I can’t take it as a personal attack because it’s such a silly misrepresentation of my reality. I’m responsible for this misrepresentation--it was my words you read, after all--but your inability to imagine another reality also plays a role here."
I reject your assumption that I can't imagine other realities.
You didn't write anything about your personal experience or your background in that article (which is maybe something your usual patrons already know) and I don't think it's on me as a reader to assume a reality i know nothing about unless you remove any doubt and write it like you just did in your response here.
I would like to play a conceptual game and turn this assumption back to you. In my own experience I've met some people (not that many I admit) that showed this excess of positivity to a point it felt pretty shallow. Some of them were people very close to the Wuffsky you described. Others were just normal people or young furries that were a bit childish about it but not much else. Others were people I've seen using a forced positivity as a coping mechanism to allow themselves to normalize optimism into their brain, after passing through so much shit that feeling optimistic in the face of difficulties felt like a luxury they should be ashamed about. A couple of these people are my close friends and at this point they outgrew that approach but I strongly think that they gained some deserved happiness through that.
Should I say that you were unable to imagine my reality, instead? A reality where your premise does not equal to a Wuffsky?
At this point I would have just thought that we had different lives and experiences with people, and your experiences would make you think what you wrote while mine made me think differently. I would have been completely fine with that, if not for what you've wrote afterwards:
"This is, again, why your words are so valuable to me, and why I know your own perspective isn’t a personal attack. It makes complete sense how this can seem like “extremely negative caricature to assume the role of a wise tutor that can show his readers how that pathetic creature can be commiserated and -perhaps- educated”. God, I wish you were right. Unfortunately, this is an immense problem that the dressings of furry can make all the more prevalent. I’ve just been here longer and paying attention with more intensity than most people tend to. I miss a lot, but I also notice a lot. I’m not saying this to inflate my own self image, but I have to believe the many people who have observed this in me over the years. I really do care more and have changed more than the average person. It makes me good at some things and awful at other things.
So, where you would eye-roll at my response to “Hey sexy people”, I would look at the kind of “good vibes only” spaces where I continuously see destructive tendencies play out the moment real conflict arises. I’ve seen friends have to rearrange their lives over these dynamics enough times, that it’s no longer a stretch for me to correlate certain rhythms of communication with certain consequences. You see this as an unfair caricature, because your life hasn’t taught you how big this problem is, and you don’t get to see my DMs and notifications full of people thanking me for articulating something that either applied to themselves or their loved ones. I look at that and go, “Cool, the writing was useful,” but I’m still shortsighted in many other ways. This writing isn’t good enough. It’s part of a larger strategy to convince people that their own lives, and others too, are worth cultivating deeper connections. And we need to do this sooner rather than later, even WRT cultural differences."
It's painfully disappointing that you've decided to play again the patronizing card, this time towards me. Despite admitting that you know nothing about my life, my experiences, culture, age and origin you've already decided to treat me like a child that yet haven't discovered how harsh the world is. You asked multiple times to be known and understood but very clearly you have shown no interest whatsoever in knowing your interlocutor, dismissing me as clueless simply on the premise I didn't agree with your views.
My respect towards you as an artist is high enough that I will try my best to rationalize this form of contempt towards me in a way that makes sense in your world and try not to judge you for this. I think this is the best I can do, then just respectfully conclude here my critique on the subject. And with the hope we can both keep growing up in the best way possible.
"I don’t expect I’ll be able to write a longer second response, but if you move inquiries to my Twitch streams, it’s my dedicated space to engage with others. (This morning's stream was about your comment and my response, actually.) If your preference is to step back and not know me better, sticking only to the art, I also understand. But for what it’s worth, you seem like the kind of person I’d like to get to know better."
Thanks but I'll pass. I'm not really into using twitch, and my english listening skills are not that good. I don't even usually interact that much with online folks, this was a pleasant exception.
Can't say I'm thrilled that you've decided to talk about my comment on a livestream with your audience but hey, it's public and it's your right to do so.
Anyway I'm very grateful that you found the time to write such a thorough answer. I appreciate it, and I wish you well!
Regarding your life experiences:
I will do two things here- first of all I'll acknowledge that this is/was a huge part of your life and I didn't know about that. It makes more sense now that you're making these assumptions so vehemently. Which brings me to the second thing:
"Imagine this context, and then imagine reducing the article written to somebody wanting to sound smart, to have an audience where they elevate themself where others can see it. I can’t take it as a personal attack because it’s such a silly misrepresentation of my reality. I’m responsible for this misrepresentation--it was my words you read, after all--but your inability to imagine another reality also plays a role here."
I reject your assumption that I can't imagine other realities.
You didn't write anything about your personal experience or your background in that article (which is maybe something your usual patrons already know) and I don't think it's on me as a reader to assume a reality i know nothing about unless you remove any doubt and write it like you just did in your response here.
I would like to play a conceptual game and turn this assumption back to you. In my own experience I've met some people (not that many I admit) that showed this excess of positivity to a point it felt pretty shallow. Some of them were people very close to the Wuffsky you described. Others were just normal people or young furries that were a bit childish about it but not much else. Others were people I've seen using a forced positivity as a coping mechanism to allow themselves to normalize optimism into their brain, after passing through so much shit that feeling optimistic in the face of difficulties felt like a luxury they should be ashamed about. A couple of these people are my close friends and at this point they outgrew that approach but I strongly think that they gained some deserved happiness through that.
Should I say that you were unable to imagine my reality, instead? A reality where your premise does not equal to a Wuffsky?
At this point I would have just thought that we had different lives and experiences with people, and your experiences would make you think what you wrote while mine made me think differently. I would have been completely fine with that, if not for what you've wrote afterwards:
"This is, again, why your words are so valuable to me, and why I know your own perspective isn’t a personal attack. It makes complete sense how this can seem like “extremely negative caricature to assume the role of a wise tutor that can show his readers how that pathetic creature can be commiserated and -perhaps- educated”. God, I wish you were right. Unfortunately, this is an immense problem that the dressings of furry can make all the more prevalent. I’ve just been here longer and paying attention with more intensity than most people tend to. I miss a lot, but I also notice a lot. I’m not saying this to inflate my own self image, but I have to believe the many people who have observed this in me over the years. I really do care more and have changed more than the average person. It makes me good at some things and awful at other things.
So, where you would eye-roll at my response to “Hey sexy people”, I would look at the kind of “good vibes only” spaces where I continuously see destructive tendencies play out the moment real conflict arises. I’ve seen friends have to rearrange their lives over these dynamics enough times, that it’s no longer a stretch for me to correlate certain rhythms of communication with certain consequences. You see this as an unfair caricature, because your life hasn’t taught you how big this problem is, and you don’t get to see my DMs and notifications full of people thanking me for articulating something that either applied to themselves or their loved ones. I look at that and go, “Cool, the writing was useful,” but I’m still shortsighted in many other ways. This writing isn’t good enough. It’s part of a larger strategy to convince people that their own lives, and others too, are worth cultivating deeper connections. And we need to do this sooner rather than later, even WRT cultural differences."
It's painfully disappointing that you've decided to play again the patronizing card, this time towards me. Despite admitting that you know nothing about my life, my experiences, culture, age and origin you've already decided to treat me like a child that yet haven't discovered how harsh the world is. You asked multiple times to be known and understood but very clearly you have shown no interest whatsoever in knowing your interlocutor, dismissing me as clueless simply on the premise I didn't agree with your views.
My respect towards you as an artist is high enough that I will try my best to rationalize this form of contempt towards me in a way that makes sense in your world and try not to judge you for this. I think this is the best I can do, then just respectfully conclude here my critique on the subject. And with the hope we can both keep growing up in the best way possible.
"I don’t expect I’ll be able to write a longer second response, but if you move inquiries to my Twitch streams, it’s my dedicated space to engage with others. (This morning's stream was about your comment and my response, actually.) If your preference is to step back and not know me better, sticking only to the art, I also understand. But for what it’s worth, you seem like the kind of person I’d like to get to know better."
Thanks but I'll pass. I'm not really into using twitch, and my english listening skills are not that good. I don't even usually interact that much with online folks, this was a pleasant exception.
Can't say I'm thrilled that you've decided to talk about my comment on a livestream with your audience but hey, it's public and it's your right to do so.
Anyway I'm very grateful that you found the time to write such a thorough answer. I appreciate it, and I wish you well!
I've forgot to address this part
"So, where you see this as elevating myself to the role of a parent or a superior player in a game, instead I see myself as connected to someone who, most likely, feels similarly to how myself and many others have felt. And if I’ve been somewhere they haven’t and I’m more aware of their own context than they are, that’s experience. I’m more comfortable around people who challenge me than I am being the only one challenging. Is that elevating my experience above others? If I’m a 16-year-old conservative Christian in Ohio, a transphobe, a xenophobe, an American Exceptionalist, and I’m doing my own self-aggrandizing, I deserve to be knocked off my pedestal. If you project labels of “trying to appear smart”, “self-elevating”, “patronizing” to someone critically addressing said 16-year-old, what you are not doing is considering their difference in context (especially highlighting their shared history), and what accountability and/or intentions the more experienced person has to the less experienced person. I’m doing this because I’m noticing so many fucked up things around me that I can’t leave accountability and intimacy to chance."
I think it would be fair for me to admit I was wrong in accusing you of trying to elevate yourself. I apologize that. By reading your words I don't think that was your intention and I'm willing to trust you in your own judgment on that matter.
I still think there's arrogance in your words, but I've already addessed that in the previous answer.
Just a small note on your example here: you definitely don't have to convince me that transhobes, xenophobes, exceptionalists and such needs to be knocked off their pedestal as quickly as fucking possible. This is a strawman. I already agree on that and I would never try to convince you otherwise. The same applies for the negative Wuffskies you've described. Obviously shitty people that hide behind sweet words are bad. I hope you understand how that was not the objective of my critique.
"So, where you see this as elevating myself to the role of a parent or a superior player in a game, instead I see myself as connected to someone who, most likely, feels similarly to how myself and many others have felt. And if I’ve been somewhere they haven’t and I’m more aware of their own context than they are, that’s experience. I’m more comfortable around people who challenge me than I am being the only one challenging. Is that elevating my experience above others? If I’m a 16-year-old conservative Christian in Ohio, a transphobe, a xenophobe, an American Exceptionalist, and I’m doing my own self-aggrandizing, I deserve to be knocked off my pedestal. If you project labels of “trying to appear smart”, “self-elevating”, “patronizing” to someone critically addressing said 16-year-old, what you are not doing is considering their difference in context (especially highlighting their shared history), and what accountability and/or intentions the more experienced person has to the less experienced person. I’m doing this because I’m noticing so many fucked up things around me that I can’t leave accountability and intimacy to chance."
I think it would be fair for me to admit I was wrong in accusing you of trying to elevate yourself. I apologize that. By reading your words I don't think that was your intention and I'm willing to trust you in your own judgment on that matter.
I still think there's arrogance in your words, but I've already addessed that in the previous answer.
Just a small note on your example here: you definitely don't have to convince me that transhobes, xenophobes, exceptionalists and such needs to be knocked off their pedestal as quickly as fucking possible. This is a strawman. I already agree on that and I would never try to convince you otherwise. The same applies for the negative Wuffskies you've described. Obviously shitty people that hide behind sweet words are bad. I hope you understand how that was not the objective of my critique.
great read, esp. about the projection of one's needs and the critical analysis to redirect it.
Thanks for taking the time to read it. Glad you got something useful out of it.
i'll be honest, neither is wrong or right, you just replied with something random to a person that said something random
you're not wrong for doing it, but neither was he, just a weird turn of events
you're not wrong for doing it, but neither was he, just a weird turn of events
A better way to frame this isn't a matter of right or wrong answers. What's the outcome you'd want for someone who isn't okay, beyond a simple right or wrong answer? Do you want to build a space where someone is more likely to be cared for, or do you want to build a space where the status quo continues uninterrupted?
i don't have anything insightful to say but "jawlock on my knot" is gonna be stuck in my head for a few days
I know this is 10 months later but I came across this and it really gave me a new perspective on random compliments from strangers, one that I think I needed.
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