Talk:Tren de Aragua

Xenophobia

LOL, I won't even try to edit it, but this is a shame, 'enormity of its crimes', etc. This is a non-entity 3rd rate gang for it has neither control of drug traffic outside both the regions of production (Colombia, Peru) passing (Mexico) or destination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.49.150.233 (talk) 23:39, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

@WMrapids: Hi. With recent fearmongering and hoaxes from far-right outlets such as Breitbart about Venezuelan migration, we have to be careful to use high quality sources, and not only local ones. A good example about this trend is shown by this piece by Chicago Sun-Times:

• Main, Frank; Schuba, Tom (10 November 2023). "Despite internal police alerts, scant evidence of violent gang members among Venezuelan migrants in Chicago". Chicago Sun-Times.

NoonIcarus (talk) 19:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

You are actually citing an outdated article. I have already removed potential xenophobic information from the refugee article, so I understand your concerns, but the best way to improve this article would be expanding information on Latin American sections. WMrapids (talk) 17:01, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree that the article could do better with expanded sections from other regions. A book I can recommend is one written by journalist Ronna Rísquez about the band gang. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Source misinterpretation

Disputed content includes the following statements:

• The gang targets Venezuelan refugees in the United States where they recruit members
• Their activities increased in New York City, with Tren de Aragua allying with MS-13
• Presence of Tren de Aragua in New York began with various phone thefts in five different counties

All of these assertions, among others, come from a New York Post interview cited here:[1]. The  New York Post (RSP entry) is generally unreliable, and its RSP entry is clear on the matter: "There is consensus that the New York Post is generally unreliable for factual reporting especially with regard to politics, particularly New York City politics. A tabloid newspaper, editors criticise its lack of concern for fact-checking or corrections, including a number of examples of outright fabrication."

• A notable brawl occurred in Times Square on 27 January 2024, with two members of the Tren de Aragua reportedly being arrested after attacking NYPD officers.

The Associated Press article itself says in its headline: "Man charged with attacking cops in Times Square and vilified in Trump ad was misidentified, DA says". The only mention about the gang here is ICE has alleged both are Tren de Aragua gang members.. This cannot be asserted in an editorial voice, and definitely shouldn't be included unless there are convictions or conclusive investigations.

• In Texas, the gang extorts Venezuelan migrants and is primarily present in El Paso.

Nowhere in the article this is stated. Besides continuing to cite the New York Post, there are only three times when the city is mentioned: citing a FBI agent, saying that the gang allegedly uses this place as a crossing (according to the NYP), and citing a former Marshall.

The article that I offered about Chicago already addresses the police reports, and responds writing: "Cops were warned to check crime suspects for tattoos linked to the El Tren de Aragua prison gang. A Sun-Times analysis found shoplifting and domestic violence arrests, but little proof of the gang’s presence among migrants."

All of this, along with WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLPCRIME, leaves pretty clear that better sourcing must be used for this section. --NoonIcarus (talk) 23:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

1. The gang targets Venezuelan refugees in the United States where they recruit members. This was replaced with better sources.
2. Their activities increased in New York City, with Tren de Aragua allying with MS-13 Found other sources for this, but it seemed more speculative.
3. Presence of Tren de Aragua in New York began with various phone thefts in five different counties Was NYP, so not restored into article.
4. A notable brawl occurred in Times Square on 27 January 2024, with two members of the Tren de Aragua reportedly being arrested after attacking NYPD officers. ICE and DHS have both said that they were members of the gang, so this is attributed.

Also, please read my response that the Chicago Sun-Times piece is outdated.

Overall, better sources have now been provided. WMrapids (talk) 21:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

More misinformation, this time from Elon Musk: Did Elon Musk Wrongly Implicate NYC Migrant In Police Assault?!. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

This is not related. WMrapids (talk) 21:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLPCRIME

We should be cautious about naming people who haven't been convicted of a crime. I realize the potential connection with Killing of Laken Riley is hot right now, but those folks are not Wikipedia:PUBLICFIGUREs, especially considering that the alleged gang member is not thought to be directly implicated in that crime, so I feel they should remain unidentified. Thesixthstaff (talk) 19:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree. Care should also with the rest of the content for the same reason, such as during the New York brawl. Sources already describe that Javier Damien was already misidentified, and we have to remember that content on Wikipedia has real-world consequences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NoonIcarus (talk • contribs)

@Thesixthstaff: Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I read your concerns about this on the other talk page and was looking to make these changes myself, but it looks like you got it done. Thanks again! WMrapids (talk) 01:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

To add to article

Basic information to add to this article (which anyone visiting this article would expect to find here): the origin/etymology of the name "Tren de Aragua." How could someone have written an article on this subject and forgotten to explain this? 98.123.38.211 (talk) 00:00, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Tone “United States” Section

Tone of first sentence in this section is in breach of impartiality standard. Rather than describing the appearance of the gang as “beginning during the Administration of Joe Biden,” I suggest the use of a date or dates, as one would in other descriptions of start & end dates. C++awx86 (talk) 13:15, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Categorizing the political bias of media outlets

Today, there was an edit that struck out the description of outlets reporting on the Aurora, CO panic as "radical right" and replaced it with "right-wing." The non-signed-in user 71.199.217.47 who made the edit justified it by saying that Fox News and the New York Post weren't really radical right, that they were merely right-wing and that just b/c radical right outlets had also reported on it doesn't mean it was only a concern of the radical right. First off, the word "radical" has an actual non-partisan definition. It doesn't mean "scary." It comes from the Latin word radix meaning "root". Thus, radical means "of or relating to roots". In a political context, radical means "concerned with changing politics at a fundamental level, i.e. at the roots." Thus, "radical right" means a contingent of the political right that seeks to change the foundations of politics.

There is ample evidence that Trump and the movement of Trumpism seeks fundamental political change that abandons foundational ideas of American politics, like bipartisanship and birthright citizenship. The editorial voice of Fox News and the New York Post are very pro-Trump, and even the times that they haven't been aligned with him, like in early 2023, they've still leaned into Trumpism and its attendant political beliefs and favored policies. Hence, Fox News and the New York Post, at the time of that false panic drummed up by the mayor of Aurora and further propagated by Trump, was an outlet with an overwhelming radical right bias. What's considered "right-wing" as opposed to "radical right" has nothing to do with whether or not they can be described as "fringe". You can be both radical and the dominant political faction, just look at Venezuela's USP, the party of Nicolas Maduro. Just because Fox News and the New York Post are mainstream right wing outlets does not mean they're not radical.

Finally, this user 71.199.217.47 has had a pattern of edits that are meant to downplay the radical right. Their most recent edit doesn't even make logical sense since the item that they edited was part of the "See Also" section which doesn't function as a list of accusations, just related topics. It's for these reasons that I'm going to undo their edit on this page and suggest that their IP address be tagged as problematic. Xerces1492 (talk) 23:44, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

I will not be digging in to past edits, but going forward, this will be on my radar and I have your back. Edit as you see fit. Marcus Markup (talk) 23:54, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

Radical right

Under the heading “United States” there is this sentence: “Contentions that Aurora was overrun by the gang were highlighted on radical right news outlets.” I contend that “radical right” is an opinion and not factual. 67.234.15.85 (talk) 13:52, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Is there an edit to the article you are suggesting? Beach drifter (talk) 00:18, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

2025 trump administration deportation

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora - be aware the regular wikipedia has a similary named unrelated Op. Aurora. Oathed (talk) 22:33, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Article Organization

It seems the deportations to El Salvador done by the US government are only indirectly related to the gang. Those deportations are being covered here.

March_2025_Venezuelan_deportations

So maybe move some content over there are provide a link? Bob drobbs (talk) 19:32, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Use of tattoos as evidence

There are some serious issues with the following section:

• The United States government has labeled migrants sent to Guantánamo as members of the Tren de Aragua, primarily based on tattoos believed to be associated with the gang, such as crowns, flowers, phrases like "real hasta la muerte," a crown on a soccer ball, an eyeball that “looked cool” and the silhouette of Michael Jordan.

The presence of Tren de Aragua gang tattoos is one of about 25 markers used to determine if an individual is a gang member and is weighted very low. Id like to remove this section and/or reincorporate the content elsewhere in the article. MasterBlasterofBarterTown (talk) 14:17, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, no. That's the political line of BS, not the actual arguments made in court. Quote from the arguments themselves, and not the politically biased media that is capable of saying literally anything about anything. The people making these challenges are legal professionals, and their words can speak perfectly well for themselves.72.180.111.79 (talk) 18:11, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

What are the "legal challenges"?

That order was temporarily halted pending further legal challenges.

I think the Article would be improved if this idea were given some substance. There's a fight in the media about the motives and reasons for challenging this, and I think that the Lede should give at least some encyclopedic perspective (meaning not biased) on the legal issues involved.72.180.111.79 (talk) 18:08, 4 April 2025 (UTC)