The "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
8 years ago
"I cannot believe in a god who wants to be praised all the time."
Friedrich Nietzsche
"Why should I respect someone who make enormous claims on no evidence? ... I think extraordinary claims... demand extraordinary evidence. Instead of which, they say, 'Look, how about no evidence at all, and just take me on faith?' Why am I supposed to respect that? I don't respect it, I suspect it."
Christopher Hitchens
Friedrich Nietzsche
"Why should I respect someone who make enormous claims on no evidence? ... I think extraordinary claims... demand extraordinary evidence. Instead of which, they say, 'Look, how about no evidence at all, and just take me on faith?' Why am I supposed to respect that? I don't respect it, I suspect it."
Christopher Hitchens
RationalWiki defines the No True Scotsman Fallacy as "a logical fallacy that occurs when (1) someone changes the definition of a word to make a claim true by default or (2) a term is defined biasedly to allow easier use of the first form. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them."
This fallacy takes many forms, from fans of Marvel claiming you're not a "real fan" unless you've read the comics to country artists singing about how you're not a "real man" unless you know how to bait a hook. The particular variant I'd like to discuss here however is of course the religious aspect--specifically, Christianity, since that's what most of us have experience with. Go to any news article about something Westboro or any other equally hateful group did and you'll doubtlessly find comments from other Christians claiming that "They're not true Christians, because they don't love one another like Jesus told us to." Likewise, however, if you talk to a fundamentalist, they will probably claim that the more liberal Christians aren't 'true Christians' because they don't adhere to the Bible strictly enough. Many Christians, to get around the cognitive dissonance of dealing with an atheist who used to be a believer, will try to make the infuriating claim that they never really believed. I've even heard it said that gay Christians aren't really Christians since they aren't truly repentant of their "sins."
A few weeks ago I was discussing my former belief with a Christian and they insisted that I was "taught wrong." The problem is, there are over forty thousand different denominations of Christianity, with each one claiming that they're right, and the rest are wrong. How am I to know if I've been "taught wrong" if no one knows how to teach it right? How is anyone supposed to know what really defines a True Christian™ if everyone is shouting a different answer?
At the church I went to, it was believed that once you were saved, you could never be "un-saved"--basically, that once you were a Christian, you would remain faithful for your whole life. I believe the scripture they often quoted was John 10:28: "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand." Confronted with atheists who were formerly believers, Christians will often claim, as mentioned above, that they never really believed--that they didn't seek God deeply enough, didn't read their Bibles enough, didn't pray enough, weren't taught under the right denomination, etc. However, this becomes an undeniable contradiction when you consider the histories of prominent atheists like Seth Andrews, who was invested in the faith for over thirty years before de-converting, and Dan Barker, founder of the Clergy Project.
If you're having a discussion with someone and they try to pull the No True Scotsman card, have them stop and first define what they mean by "true Christian." From there, you can ask them to prove how they know that that is the definition. You can also offer examples of atheists who have been involved in the faith to varying degrees and yet still de-converted.
-x-
Onto some news!
To (almost) no one's surprise, teen pregnancy and abortion rates have gone down in Hawaii after abandoning abstinence-only education. On a related note, studies have revealed that women don't regret abortions, despite what many pro-lifers will claim.
I'm sure many of you by now have heard of the upcoming movie based on the Stonewall Riots due to the immense controversy over the lengths Hollywood is evidently willing to go to write white, cisgender men into every significant historical event. Though the first brick at Stonewall was thrown by black trans woman Marsha P. Johnson, the writers of Stonewall saw fit to create a fictional cisgender white male character to replace her. In other LGBT news,John Corvino addresses the slippery slope argument against gay marriage equality. Also, if you like, you can read up on how the rainbow flag became the symbol of LGBT pride.
Recently, pro-lifers once again raised a ruckus about Planned Parenthood in regard to them selling remains of aborted fetuses to organizations for stem cell research. Thankfully, a vote in the Senate to defund Planned Parenthood failed.
I realized a few days after posting the SCOTUS journal that I had totally missed an important news story, so it's rather old, but worth including anyway: a Satanic statue was unveiled about a month ago in Detroit in what is described as the largest Satanic public event in history. The statue was intended to be erected next to the Ten Commandments monument on Oklahoma capitol grounds, but after religious monuments were successfully banned there, they've moved their target now to Arkansas, where a Ten Commandments monument on state grounds is currently in the works.
Related to this topic, and also slightly to furries, is an illustrated book of bad arguments, which you can read online for free!
Also, Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains everything in eight minutes.
This isn't really news, but I was sent two gallery submissions that are excellent, but unfortunately are text-only images. If you'd like to read them though (and I really recommend it!) you can see them here and here.
For the comments, have you ever encountered the No True Scotsman fallacy when dealing with theists of any kind? Or perhaps have other examples you'd like to share? As always, other news articles that I've missed are always appreciated!
This fallacy takes many forms, from fans of Marvel claiming you're not a "real fan" unless you've read the comics to country artists singing about how you're not a "real man" unless you know how to bait a hook. The particular variant I'd like to discuss here however is of course the religious aspect--specifically, Christianity, since that's what most of us have experience with. Go to any news article about something Westboro or any other equally hateful group did and you'll doubtlessly find comments from other Christians claiming that "They're not true Christians, because they don't love one another like Jesus told us to." Likewise, however, if you talk to a fundamentalist, they will probably claim that the more liberal Christians aren't 'true Christians' because they don't adhere to the Bible strictly enough. Many Christians, to get around the cognitive dissonance of dealing with an atheist who used to be a believer, will try to make the infuriating claim that they never really believed. I've even heard it said that gay Christians aren't really Christians since they aren't truly repentant of their "sins."
A few weeks ago I was discussing my former belief with a Christian and they insisted that I was "taught wrong." The problem is, there are over forty thousand different denominations of Christianity, with each one claiming that they're right, and the rest are wrong. How am I to know if I've been "taught wrong" if no one knows how to teach it right? How is anyone supposed to know what really defines a True Christian™ if everyone is shouting a different answer?
At the church I went to, it was believed that once you were saved, you could never be "un-saved"--basically, that once you were a Christian, you would remain faithful for your whole life. I believe the scripture they often quoted was John 10:28: "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand." Confronted with atheists who were formerly believers, Christians will often claim, as mentioned above, that they never really believed--that they didn't seek God deeply enough, didn't read their Bibles enough, didn't pray enough, weren't taught under the right denomination, etc. However, this becomes an undeniable contradiction when you consider the histories of prominent atheists like Seth Andrews, who was invested in the faith for over thirty years before de-converting, and Dan Barker, founder of the Clergy Project.
If you're having a discussion with someone and they try to pull the No True Scotsman card, have them stop and first define what they mean by "true Christian." From there, you can ask them to prove how they know that that is the definition. You can also offer examples of atheists who have been involved in the faith to varying degrees and yet still de-converted.
-x-
Onto some news!
To (almost) no one's surprise, teen pregnancy and abortion rates have gone down in Hawaii after abandoning abstinence-only education. On a related note, studies have revealed that women don't regret abortions, despite what many pro-lifers will claim.
I'm sure many of you by now have heard of the upcoming movie based on the Stonewall Riots due to the immense controversy over the lengths Hollywood is evidently willing to go to write white, cisgender men into every significant historical event. Though the first brick at Stonewall was thrown by black trans woman Marsha P. Johnson, the writers of Stonewall saw fit to create a fictional cisgender white male character to replace her. In other LGBT news,John Corvino addresses the slippery slope argument against gay marriage equality. Also, if you like, you can read up on how the rainbow flag became the symbol of LGBT pride.
Recently, pro-lifers once again raised a ruckus about Planned Parenthood in regard to them selling remains of aborted fetuses to organizations for stem cell research. Thankfully, a vote in the Senate to defund Planned Parenthood failed.
I realized a few days after posting the SCOTUS journal that I had totally missed an important news story, so it's rather old, but worth including anyway: a Satanic statue was unveiled about a month ago in Detroit in what is described as the largest Satanic public event in history. The statue was intended to be erected next to the Ten Commandments monument on Oklahoma capitol grounds, but after religious monuments were successfully banned there, they've moved their target now to Arkansas, where a Ten Commandments monument on state grounds is currently in the works.
Related to this topic, and also slightly to furries, is an illustrated book of bad arguments, which you can read online for free!
Also, Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains everything in eight minutes.
This isn't really news, but I was sent two gallery submissions that are excellent, but unfortunately are text-only images. If you'd like to read them though (and I really recommend it!) you can see them here and here.
For the comments, have you ever encountered the No True Scotsman fallacy when dealing with theists of any kind? Or perhaps have other examples you'd like to share? As always, other news articles that I've missed are always appreciated!
eh, i don't think roland emirich intentionally wrote away marsha p johnson. he's fucked up the historicity and science in his movies that im surprised he remembered july fourth in independence day and godzilla was not a biblical monster. so i don't think it's any intentional wrong doing, just an oversight.
i don't see anything wrong with polygamy. if two or more consenting adults love each other and want to marry, let it be. It's how humans existed before the catholic church shoved monogamy down our throats. and let's be honest, if you eat meat, you have no argument against bestiality since you are killing the animal.
what the hell is it with the boners that right wingers have with planned parenthood? we actually have a piece of social welfare that's actually working and republicans want to shit on it? don't these stupid idiots realize god condones abortion in three parts of the bible?
i haven't discussed much about the bible other then with my friend who is a liberal christian. he believes christianity and religion to be a force for good where i'm an anti-theist and i frequently bring the various atrocities in the bible along with Matthew 5:17-20. we never get heated and it stays pretty casual, though it's always confused me that he'd still believe in such a horrible cult with a psychopathic deity.
This is fun XP
Also known as the "if we can't have it all, then nobody can have anything!" screaming toddler school of thought.
BTW here's a huge bit of irony over ten commandment displays. According to Judaism 101, ancient Jews forbade recitation of the ten commandments in Jewish liturgy because they didn't want people to think there were only ten commandments (there's actually 613 commandments in the Torah) or that those commandments are the most important ones. http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm How many people are even aware of the actual number of commandments in the Torah? Also, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all divide the commandments differently, http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/200.....mandments.aspx so wouldn't that mean using one set of the commandments favors that religion over the others?
Yep, there are all kinds of commandments in whichever religion is being looked at. Christians hold up the 10 commandments as if it's the entirety of the rules people should live by, but those are among dozens of others in the surrounding chapters. And of course, they pick and choose which ones they want to live by or, more likely, demand other people live by. The things about mixed fibers in garments, killing those who work on the sabbath (whichever day that happens to be), coveting what other people have, plowing the corners of a farm field, and lying get ignored, and if it's brought up that things like that or the ones about killing a woman who's not a virgin on her wedding day, they quickly dismiss it as the old testament, saying the rules to follow are in the new testament. Yet when it comes to preaching against harmless matters such as homosexuality, they hold up their O.T. passages as if they're carved in stone. Then they wear their cotton/poly blends to church and give money to a thief, followed by ignoring the homeless man on the street as they go shopping after church at stores and restaurants where people are working.
That's hilarious! I didn't know that. I actually heard recently that, according to the bible, Moses broke the first set of commandments, so God said he'd write a second draft himself, and that they'd be exactly the same. The thing is, when Moses went back up there, God gave him a different set of commandments, including one that said that thou shalt not boil a baby goat in its mother's milk. (I don't see why people think the ten commandments are so important anyway--seems to me like God could've just said, "Hey, don't be an asshole," and that would've done just fine. Or, I don't know, "Thou shalt not own other people as slaves" or "Thou shalt not rape women" or something.)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10ck.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_Decalogue
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docum.....ary_hypothesis
This actually explains a LOT of the contradictions in the Old Testament, like whether man and woman were created at the same time or man first and then woman, whether Noah's ark had two of every animal or 2 pairs of unclean animals and 7 pairs of clean animals, whether or not God can be seen, etc. Different authors living in different times and places wrote different versions of the same story, and down the line they were collected and redacted into one narrative. Look up the Documentary Hypothesis. It's pretty interesting to learn about.
It's kind of a "well, duh!" that pregnancy rates would go down once a state eliminates abstinence-only sex ed. Seriously, that's like a driver's ed class teaching safe driving by using the lesson of, "don't drive a car and you won't get into accidents." It's hard to believe so many states and school districts, as well as parents, cling to the idea that abstinence-only sex education actually works and serves some good for the kids' education.
Am I alone in thinking it would be hilarious if that satan statue also had the pinkie up in the hand symbol so he's doing the shocker?
And of course she responded "they're not TRUE Christians"
I respect that she belives in god and follows the Christian faith, but when she tells me "It doesn't matter if evolution is true, I aint no ape." A little part of me wishes religion wasn't a thing.
It's true that many Christians will make the charge that other self-identified Christians are false believers or shams or whatever. I generally do not support this approach even though I believe there is a real and concrete notion of what a Christian is because it is beyond our epistemic limits to know what someone truly believes or what his or her actual spiritual status is. If there is such a thing, only God could have access to such knowledge.
With regard to atheists who are former Christians or believers of other faiths, I am skeptical about the majority of them ever being genuine or very serious about it or even if they were, they had very shallow, immature, ill-informed understandings of the faith. I'm sure some atheists were genuinely serious believers at one point but even then, I have yet to hear from an atheist who is also a former Christian yet possesses a mature and erudite grasp of Christian theology and philosophy. I've been shocked at how someone like Dan Barker, who was an evangelical pastor for a very long time, has such a juvenile understanding of the Bible and theology.
Your statement about the thousands of denominations within Christianity each claiming exclusive truth is just factually wrong. The vast majority of Christian denominations disagree on less essential, ancillary, finer points of doctrine but hold to a common theological core. Most Christian denominations believe in the theistic concept of God, that Christ is divine and hold to the Trinity doctrine and virtually all of them hold belief in Christ and Christ's atoning sacrifice and resurrection as central to salvation. The notion that there are thousands of denominations that are all completely contradictory to each other in every way is nonsense.
Would you mind if I sent you a note with a few questions about this subject, and posted your answers in a journal in the near future? I think the group as a whole would be interested in what you have to say.