RIP HRM, The Goblin King
Posted 8 years ago[From Wikipedia]
Regarding his religion, in 2005 he said, "Questioning my spiritual life has always been germane to what I was writing. Always." He added that he was bothered by being "not quite an atheist".[223] In the Esquire interview "What I've Learned", he stated, "I'm in awe of the universe, but I don't necessarily believe there's an intelligence or agent behind it. I do have a passion for the visual in religious rituals, though, even though they may be completely empty and bereft of substance. The incense is powerful and provocative, whether Buddhist or Catholic."
Fellow Skeptic, David Robert Jones (Bowie) died of liver cancer last night. I know 99% of us remember him from Jim Henson's Labyrinth and his own music career. Two days earlier, he released his final album, Blackstar.
As atheists, we have a sober outlook on death. It is final. It is permanent. But, it is natural. There is no real need to fear it, but knowing what we do, we are driven to do everything we can within the time we have.
Sorry for the lack of updates, and sorry for starting off the New Year on a sad note. Trapper John from MASH died at the end of 2015 too. Our nostalgic figures are dwindling. T.T
~Taggr
Regarding his religion, in 2005 he said, "Questioning my spiritual life has always been germane to what I was writing. Always." He added that he was bothered by being "not quite an atheist".[223] In the Esquire interview "What I've Learned", he stated, "I'm in awe of the universe, but I don't necessarily believe there's an intelligence or agent behind it. I do have a passion for the visual in religious rituals, though, even though they may be completely empty and bereft of substance. The incense is powerful and provocative, whether Buddhist or Catholic."
Fellow Skeptic, David Robert Jones (Bowie) died of liver cancer last night. I know 99% of us remember him from Jim Henson's Labyrinth and his own music career. Two days earlier, he released his final album, Blackstar.
As atheists, we have a sober outlook on death. It is final. It is permanent. But, it is natural. There is no real need to fear it, but knowing what we do, we are driven to do everything we can within the time we have.
Sorry for the lack of updates, and sorry for starting off the New Year on a sad note. Trapper John from MASH died at the end of 2015 too. Our nostalgic figures are dwindling. T.T
~Taggr
Christmas Victory
Posted 8 years agoHEY GUYS! Sorry we haven't updated in a while. *cough*Blame the holidays*cough*. ANYWAY! Thought I'd talk about a little personal Yule Tide present that makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
I know I've posted at least one picture here describing how my husband and I have been on opposite ends of the subject matter here, he being a theist and me being an atheist. We've had many discussions, both political and "spiritual", about topics ranging from local/national matters to science and physics. First, it was obvious that the political and social matters I was pointing out showed at LOT of injustice and he slowly stepped over the conservative republican line to my side. It helps when you yourself are a victim of much of the injustice going on here in the US. Then, just last night, he was "sleeping" and I was on the computer, he tosses over and starts into a conversation about how he can't sleep because he's running through recent arguments with his family in his head. It's the holidays. I don't know anyone who's NOT mentally preparing for political family conversations. Happens all the time. I kind of brush it off and tell him I've been doing the same thing at work and find myself getting so angry about the topic running through my head that I throw something a tiny bit harder than I wanted to. Anyway, he starts talking about specifics, how Joel Olstein is a major asshat and "not a true Christian". Of course, I immediately jump on the No True Scotsman fallacy he's just committed. From there, somehow or another I end up asking him if HE is a Christian anymore. He. Says. NO! 8D
Now, we did have a conversation earlier in which he said that he still believes in a "Higher Power/Being". So I haven't won him over QUITE yet. However, admitting that he is no longer a Christian is a HUGE step and I do consider it a victory, however small it may be.
Having said all that, I must admit that it was never TRULY my intention to deconvert him. Quite the opposite. I was actually kind of proud to say he was a Christian because that showed many friends (on both sides) that I was, indeed, more tolerant than either Christians thought atheists were or most atheists in general. But this certainly isn't a disappointment at any rate!
So in this festive Season of Yule, Saturnalia, Christmas, Newtonmas, ect., feel free to share your personal victories with us. Have you won someone over or know someone who has joined "the dark side" recently? (Star Wars pun not intended)
~ darktaggr
I know I've posted at least one picture here describing how my husband and I have been on opposite ends of the subject matter here, he being a theist and me being an atheist. We've had many discussions, both political and "spiritual", about topics ranging from local/national matters to science and physics. First, it was obvious that the political and social matters I was pointing out showed at LOT of injustice and he slowly stepped over the conservative republican line to my side. It helps when you yourself are a victim of much of the injustice going on here in the US. Then, just last night, he was "sleeping" and I was on the computer, he tosses over and starts into a conversation about how he can't sleep because he's running through recent arguments with his family in his head. It's the holidays. I don't know anyone who's NOT mentally preparing for political family conversations. Happens all the time. I kind of brush it off and tell him I've been doing the same thing at work and find myself getting so angry about the topic running through my head that I throw something a tiny bit harder than I wanted to. Anyway, he starts talking about specifics, how Joel Olstein is a major asshat and "not a true Christian". Of course, I immediately jump on the No True Scotsman fallacy he's just committed. From there, somehow or another I end up asking him if HE is a Christian anymore. He. Says. NO! 8D
Now, we did have a conversation earlier in which he said that he still believes in a "Higher Power/Being". So I haven't won him over QUITE yet. However, admitting that he is no longer a Christian is a HUGE step and I do consider it a victory, however small it may be.
Having said all that, I must admit that it was never TRULY my intention to deconvert him. Quite the opposite. I was actually kind of proud to say he was a Christian because that showed many friends (on both sides) that I was, indeed, more tolerant than either Christians thought atheists were or most atheists in general. But this certainly isn't a disappointment at any rate!
So in this festive Season of Yule, Saturnalia, Christmas, Newtonmas, ect., feel free to share your personal victories with us. Have you won someone over or know someone who has joined "the dark side" recently? (Star Wars pun not intended)
~ darktaggr
US Politics
Posted 8 years agoKind of wanted to get members' opinions about the candidates running for nomination. I'm especially interested in the views of non-citizens. You know, people who live out in the world where "Texas" literally means "crazy".
The basic run-down so far is as follows-
Republicans
Donald Trump: Racist Moron
Ben Carson: Racial Moron
Democrats
Bernie Sanders: Socialist (AKA: "Next Hitler")
Hillary Clinton: Pseudo-Republican (AKA: "BENGAZI!")
~Taggr
The basic run-down so far is as follows-
Republicans
Donald Trump: Racist Moron
Ben Carson: Racial Moron
Democrats
Bernie Sanders: Socialist (AKA: "Next Hitler")
Hillary Clinton: Pseudo-Republican (AKA: "BENGAZI!")
~Taggr
Goofed
Posted 8 years agoSo apparently the pope is NOT as big of an idiot as I thought in the last journal. While he did meet with Kim Davis, it was little more than a gathering of acquaintances or a meet-and-greet and certainly NOT a one-on-one as Davis had claimed. We here in the states tend to place events on either side of the bipartisan line and there's little gray area here. But it does exist. A report from the Vatican itself says that the pope (all popes) doesn't tend to outright avoid meeting with people who they disagree with. In fact, that's basically the way politics and religion have to work- in order to remain civil, sometimes you have to talk with some unsavory people.
I didn't really want to get hung up on this issue, as no one really should care what the pope thinks about Kim Davis and her antics, but I thought I'd better correct myself.
~Taggr
I didn't really want to get hung up on this issue, as no one really should care what the pope thinks about Kim Davis and her antics, but I thought I'd better correct myself.
~Taggr
Calm Down, People. The Pope is Still an Idiot.
Posted 8 years agoIt's all "news" all over the atheist pages on FaceBook. Why? How did you NOT expect this? "The Pope sides with Kim Davis and says religion is a perfectly acceptable excuse to deny people marriage licences. OOOH NOOO! I TOTALLY didn't see that coming!" Are you stupid?
Yes, I still COMPLETELY prefer this Pope to Innocent III. He IS a great Pope. Well, no. He's a great PERSON. As far as being the head of the big momma Catholic church, no. He's not at all doing the church any favors. Why do I say that? Because he's driving the church down the path of REASON. And eventually it will catch up with us and people will start saying "Hey... Why do we believe this tripe again?" and leave. It's the start of the dissolving of the christian faith and I have all the popcorn. You might say this is the "Last Shepard". You know, until he dies and the next Pope ends up to be Innocent III incarnate.
Yes, I still COMPLETELY prefer this Pope to Innocent III. He IS a great Pope. Well, no. He's a great PERSON. As far as being the head of the big momma Catholic church, no. He's not at all doing the church any favors. Why do I say that? Because he's driving the church down the path of REASON. And eventually it will catch up with us and people will start saying "Hey... Why do we believe this tripe again?" and leave. It's the start of the dissolving of the christian faith and I have all the popcorn. You might say this is the "Last Shepard". You know, until he dies and the next Pope ends up to be Innocent III incarnate.
Fundies Say The Darnedest Things- September
Posted 8 years agoWelp, I finally had a row with my in-laws, my husband's father's side of the family to be precise. I thought I'd share some of their comments with you lovely people. :3
Stupid comment #1: "people who are not sure of what they are talking about, usually resort to researching facts to legitimize what they are saying. This fact finding mission you are on is making you look weak."
Stupid Comment #2: "5 people in the supreme court cannot tell the rest of the world what is right or wrong."
Stupid comment #3: "When you marry in a Christian church, you both have the same belief" "You disrespected my family by marrying there"
Bits of a Fun Argument that got me Disowned by my cousin-in-law
Her: I was BORN a woman. He is not a women he will never have periods and bare a child no he's not a woman
Me: So are infertile people not women? Because I'm infertile
Her: No you have breast he will never know what it's like being a woman
Me: She's judged by her looks, her voice, her skin, and what she wears. I'd say she's got a good start. And many people get breast implants because they have very small breasts. Are they not women? Or, some also have to get mastectomies because of cancer. Are they not women? In the end, all you're doing is judging someone based on their appearance or their conformity to the norm.
Her: He's a man end of subject.
Me: You have no argument. You hate because you are told to hate by what you've been taught. Choose compassion.
Her: I don't hate. I don't believe in people who have to take medication to make them self women
Me: You realize that people who have to have their uterus taken out due to cancer also have to take hormones... Again, your argument is flawed
Her: But the they are already women.
Me: So? Their natural hormones have been taken away, just like Jenner's.
Her: Whatever I'm done. I have my beliefs and you have yours maybe you should go to a family who believes the same thing as you
Me: WOW. First, phobia is not a belief. There are trans christians. Second, "GTFO?" Really? That's your end statement? I thought you were all about family?
Her: Yeah it is. I am but your not family to me anymore you cross the line. I don't want you near my house
Christian Love, Everyone.
Tried to remind a fundie that compassion includes transgendered people. Fuck me, right?
Stupid comment #1: "people who are not sure of what they are talking about, usually resort to researching facts to legitimize what they are saying. This fact finding mission you are on is making you look weak."
Stupid Comment #2: "5 people in the supreme court cannot tell the rest of the world what is right or wrong."
Stupid comment #3: "When you marry in a Christian church, you both have the same belief" "You disrespected my family by marrying there"
Bits of a Fun Argument that got me Disowned by my cousin-in-law
Her: I was BORN a woman. He is not a women he will never have periods and bare a child no he's not a woman
Me: So are infertile people not women? Because I'm infertile
Her: No you have breast he will never know what it's like being a woman
Me: She's judged by her looks, her voice, her skin, and what she wears. I'd say she's got a good start. And many people get breast implants because they have very small breasts. Are they not women? Or, some also have to get mastectomies because of cancer. Are they not women? In the end, all you're doing is judging someone based on their appearance or their conformity to the norm.
Her: He's a man end of subject.
Me: You have no argument. You hate because you are told to hate by what you've been taught. Choose compassion.
Her: I don't hate. I don't believe in people who have to take medication to make them self women
Me: You realize that people who have to have their uterus taken out due to cancer also have to take hormones... Again, your argument is flawed
Her: But the they are already women.
Me: So? Their natural hormones have been taken away, just like Jenner's.
Her: Whatever I'm done. I have my beliefs and you have yours maybe you should go to a family who believes the same thing as you
Me: WOW. First, phobia is not a belief. There are trans christians. Second, "GTFO?" Really? That's your end statement? I thought you were all about family?
Her: Yeah it is. I am but your not family to me anymore you cross the line. I don't want you near my house
Christian Love, Everyone.
Tried to remind a fundie that compassion includes transgendered people. Fuck me, right?
Suggestions?
Posted 8 years agoSo I want to make this group a bit more active and not have it focus on just bitching about religion in the news. I mean, I know it's technically an ANTI group, so no much is expected of us beyond complaining and arguing. But I'd like to have this also be an outlet for people who aren't religious and need help, but don't want to be subjected to the propaganda and empty bribes made by the many "charities" out there. You know, the ones who will only help you if you at least promise to take a bible and tolerate the sermons being preached into your ear with Hallelujah lyrics in the background. That's not to say I wouldn't also signal boost the journals of members of a religious sect who are in need if they asked me to. Because I would. I'm not an asshole. But I would want to also cull the snickers and giggles being left in the comments.
But anyway, other than that and a "monthly moment" (monthly journal post with some sort of religious fail or secular win), any other ideas to keep this group active?
~Taggr
But anyway, other than that and a "monthly moment" (monthly journal post with some sort of religious fail or secular win), any other ideas to keep this group active?
~Taggr
Marriage
Posted 8 years agoFrom Wikipedia
Marriage, also called matrimony or wedlock, is a socially or ritually recognized union or legal contract between spouses that establishes rights and obligations between them, between them and their children, and between them and their in-laws.[1] The definition of marriage varies according to different cultures, but it is principally an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually sexual, are acknowledged. In some cultures, marriage is recommended or considered to be compulsory before pursuing any sexual activity. When defined broadly, marriage is considered a cultural universal.
So how is it that Kim Davis gets to define a couple's marriage based on her narrow American Christian view? Here's how she thinks she has that authority: According to one of my aunt-in-laws, everyone knows deep in their souls that they are a child of HER god. That's right. No matter how sacred and truthful they hold to their own beliefs, be it Islam, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, or Pagan, deep, deep, DEEP down, they KNOW they're a Christian. No matter wether or not they've even HEARD of Jesus, the Holy Ghost, or even been introduced to the idea that someone else could be punished for their wrong doings (which is an absolute abomination to the justice system), somehow, within the darkest chasms of their subconsciousness, some Jew in a distant, equally unheard of land, died for their sins.
With respect to any and all religions not associated with the Jesus character, THIS is beyond egotistical of the Christian faith. This is an absolute HIJACKING of the mind and soul of people of other cultures and it should be considered a spiritual theft. No, it could not be technically punished, of course, but it is a just cause for outrage by people of other faiths.
To make matters worse, it's not just Davis that believes this of her version of the Christian god. Of course everyone has their own view of him, so basically, every Christian believes that you really do believe in their version deep down in your soul. So how do you appease every version? There are, of course, gay Christians. So according to them, you believe, in your soul, that their god exists and accepts gays. But then you have Davis, who believes that you believe in her god and he does not accept gays.
And people wonder why we have a hard time believing.
~ darktaggr
Marriage, also called matrimony or wedlock, is a socially or ritually recognized union or legal contract between spouses that establishes rights and obligations between them, between them and their children, and between them and their in-laws.[1] The definition of marriage varies according to different cultures, but it is principally an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually sexual, are acknowledged. In some cultures, marriage is recommended or considered to be compulsory before pursuing any sexual activity. When defined broadly, marriage is considered a cultural universal.
So how is it that Kim Davis gets to define a couple's marriage based on her narrow American Christian view? Here's how she thinks she has that authority: According to one of my aunt-in-laws, everyone knows deep in their souls that they are a child of HER god. That's right. No matter how sacred and truthful they hold to their own beliefs, be it Islam, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, or Pagan, deep, deep, DEEP down, they KNOW they're a Christian. No matter wether or not they've even HEARD of Jesus, the Holy Ghost, or even been introduced to the idea that someone else could be punished for their wrong doings (which is an absolute abomination to the justice system), somehow, within the darkest chasms of their subconsciousness, some Jew in a distant, equally unheard of land, died for their sins.
With respect to any and all religions not associated with the Jesus character, THIS is beyond egotistical of the Christian faith. This is an absolute HIJACKING of the mind and soul of people of other cultures and it should be considered a spiritual theft. No, it could not be technically punished, of course, but it is a just cause for outrage by people of other faiths.
To make matters worse, it's not just Davis that believes this of her version of the Christian god. Of course everyone has their own view of him, so basically, every Christian believes that you really do believe in their version deep down in your soul. So how do you appease every version? There are, of course, gay Christians. So according to them, you believe, in your soul, that their god exists and accepts gays. But then you have Davis, who believes that you believe in her god and he does not accept gays.
And people wonder why we have a hard time believing.
~ darktaggr
Dusting Off
Posted 8 years agoWent through all the old journals and new watchers and old comments, deleted some nasty posts and unintelligible debates, banned some trolls and cry babies. I feel like I just cleaned my room. Everything's nice and shiny again.
I did notice something repetitive, though, and I feel I must address it.
Dear anti-anti-theists,
When we kill, torture, maim, and criminalize as many people as religions have, THEN you can tell us we're being hateful and intolerant. That is all.
~
I did notice something repetitive, though, and I feel I must address it.
Dear anti-anti-theists,
When we kill, torture, maim, and criminalize as many people as religions have, THEN you can tell us we're being hateful and intolerant. That is all.
~
Returning
Posted 8 years agoUS Senator wants to make Church attendance mandatory
Posted 9 years agoHello, lollazer here!
It's been a while, hasn't it? I honestly didn't have much time for this group and I didn't really have anything to share with you.
But today I stumbled over a little something that I wanted to share with you...
Just watch:
http://edition.cnn.com/videos/polit.....mandatory.ktvk
It aleady spread on social media websites. This Arizona senator wants to make going to church on Sundays mandatory for some kind of "moral rebirth" of the USA.
I'm gonna make my opinion on this short:
FUCK. YOU.
Fuck you, you gigantic bitch! How DARE she even suggest something like thís? To suggest that everyone should be part of some magical fairy tale whether they want to or not, just because she thinks that would lead to better morals?
You want people to have better morals? How about you make properly raising children mandatory? But oh no! That would be too difficult, wouldn't it? let's just make everyone go to church, yeah that'll fix out problems...
So what is your opinion on this? And how would you try to initiate a "moral rebirth"?
It's been a while, hasn't it? I honestly didn't have much time for this group and I didn't really have anything to share with you.
But today I stumbled over a little something that I wanted to share with you...
Just watch:
http://edition.cnn.com/videos/polit.....mandatory.ktvk
It aleady spread on social media websites. This Arizona senator wants to make going to church on Sundays mandatory for some kind of "moral rebirth" of the USA.
I'm gonna make my opinion on this short:
FUCK. YOU.
Fuck you, you gigantic bitch! How DARE she even suggest something like thís? To suggest that everyone should be part of some magical fairy tale whether they want to or not, just because she thinks that would lead to better morals?
You want people to have better morals? How about you make properly raising children mandatory? But oh no! That would be too difficult, wouldn't it? let's just make everyone go to church, yeah that'll fix out problems...
So what is your opinion on this? And how would you try to initiate a "moral rebirth"?
Fake Conversions 2
Posted 9 years agoHeads up and general update: Hi, it's astralblaze my apologies for lack of response/content. That will be fixed soon.
The following is furshinku's contribution, a follow up on Fake conversions.
How to recognize fake conversion stories VERSION 2
Introduction
Conversion stories are a popular staple amongst many religious and non-religious people, explaining how and why a person changed their worldview and beliefs. The most famous conversion stories are probably those of the Apostle Paul and Saint Augustine of Hippo‘s book Confessions. They helped establish attributes that would become popular in conversion stories, a sinful life before converting, a turning point of some kind, and then fulfillment in their new found faith. Unfortunately, not every tale of a sinner finding religion is truthful. Amongst many real stories are stories that are made up by charlatans and attention-seekers to take advantage of people willing to believe them. This essay is meant to counter these fakers and show what kind of red flags are common in fake conversion stories.
Why is this important? Because fake conversion stories can do serious damage. Sadly, some hoaxers manage to become very popular through telling their false stories, garnering media attention and make lots of money through books and public speaking appearances. The worst fakers use their conversion stories to spread hatred and paranoia of other belief systems. The Satanic Panic of the 1980s, fueled by fake conversion stories of supposed ex-Satanists and pseudo-scientific forms of recovering repressed memories of abuse are a prime example of this. They are not merely harmless.
I was inspired to write this mainly by reading about the fake conversions of alleged ex-Satanists, so I will be using them as examples throughout, although I’ll throw in other types of fake conversions that I’ve seen online as well. This article doesn’t mean to say that every story of a Satanist or witch converting to another religion is false, but if you hear a conversion story that says ridiculous things that are less than honest, you should probably take the story with a grain of salt. Although I’ll be focusing on religious conversions, some of these guidelines can be applied to any kind of personal story that seems fishy.
Warning signs of a fake conversion story
-The story is rife with contradictions, or contradictions arise between retellings of the same story. If people start noticing contradictions, the author may "revise" their story to correct them. Comparing multiple retellings of a suspicious conversion may make contradictions and revisions apparent.
-Unlikely dates for events or inconsistent timelines, eg the author claims to have held a job or graduated college at a time they would have been too young.
-The conversion story plagiarizes from other sources, eg the author tries to seem like an expert on a topic by copying real experts, or elements of their life story are borrowed from other people's biographies.
-The author accuses their former belief system of committing heinous crimes with no evidence. Many supposed former Satanists and witches that became fundamentalist Christians claiming that Satanists sacrifice children and animals.
-Stereotypes or misrepresentations of other belief systems, eg "Catholics worship Mary," "all Muslims condone terrorism," "Jews control the banks," "Buddhists are idolators," and so on.
-False self-aggrandizing claims or claims of expertise or authority they don‘t really have, eg Young Earth Creationists claiming to have science degrees that actually come from diploma mills or unacredited universities. Similarly are people who falsely claim to have connections with infamous non-beleivers such as some ex-Satanists claiming to be estranged children of Church of Satan founder Anton LaVey.
-Phoney conspiracy theories, eg a conversion story that claims Satanists, Catholics, Jews, or some other religion that is percieved to be evil is under the control of the Illuminati, controlling the entertainment industry, etc.
THE WALL OF SHAME (in no particular order)
-Doreen Irvine, alleged convert from witchcraft to Christianity. Her 1973 book From Witchcraft to Christ helped start the Satanic Panic that grew later in the 80s, although the experiences she recounts are not as outrageous as later supposed ex-Satanists and witches. Exposed here. http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/dirvine.htm
-Lauren Stratford, (real name Laurel Wilson, also one time falsely claimed to be a Holocaust survivor named Laura Grabowski) alleged convert from Satanism to fundamentalist Christianity. She wrote a book called Satan's Underground recounting her life of abuse and conversion to Satanism. Cornerstone magazine, a Christian publication, discovered two contradictory conversion stories of her and exposed her here. http://www.answers.org/satan/satansideshow.html
-Tony Anthony, an evangelist who wrote an auto-biography called Taming the Tiger about his alledged conversion story. He made many self agrandizing claims such as winning secret martial arts tournaments in China and becoming a body gaurd at 18. He then claims for many years he became a violent criminal before his conversion. The director of his own ministry, Mike Hancock, investigated the claims in the book and found that Anthony had lied about his year of birth and plagairized from martial arts websites to create his descriptions of kung fu techniques. Exposed here. http://crosswire.org.uk/2013/07/01/.....ography-lies/#
-Mike Warnke, allged former Satanist covert to Christianity. He promoted many false "Satanic Ritual Abuse" stories. Exposed here http://www.answers.org/satan/warnke1.html
-Rabbi Sam Stern, convert from Orthodox Judaism to Messianic Judaism (Christianity with some Jewish practices thrown in). His conversion story can be read here. http://www.menorah.org/rabbisamstern.html A critique of it by Reuven Levinson, a counter missionary Jew, can be read here http://www.messianicjewishtruth.com.....stimonies.html which shows how Stern gets many things about Judaism wrong, such as saying that Medievel rabbi Maimonides' works are part of the Talmud (they're not) and describing Jewish school inaccurately.
- Kirk Cameron, former atheist convert to fundamentalist Christianity. Frequently claims to have been an atheist and supporter of evolution when he was young. He's now become a shill for Young Earth Creationism. His constant misrepresentations about evolution, eg claiming transitional fossils should produce hybrid species like a crocoduck, shows that it's more likely he was very misinformed about evolution.
- Athet Pyan Shinthaw Paulu, former Buddhist monk who converted to Chrsitianity. He claims to have once died for three days, had a horrifying vision of Hell, and then came back to life. While some Christian website unscrupoulously use his story to proselytize to buddhists, others have dissented and said it's full of crap such as here http://web.archive.org/web/20110216.....TICLE-0036.htm He's also exposed on some Buddhist websites like here http://www.buddha.sg/htm/general/faq01.htm which points out numerous errors such as how Paulu gets his own monk title wrong.
- Benjamin H. Freedman, a Jewish convert to Catholicism who became a huge anti-Semite. He frequently claimed that being a former Jew gave him insights in Jewish conspiracies to take over the world, and in 1961 he gave a very long winded speech about how evil Jews are that is still popular amongst racists, holocaust deniers, and anti-Jewish Christian and Muslim extremists even today. Since most of the sites that reproduce the 1961 speech and his other works tend to be hate websites, I will not link to them here. If you're really that curious to look them up, they're easily found on the web. I will however link to this rebuttal of his 1961 speech.
http://www.redstate.com/diary/barry.....-in-palestine/
- Jess LaVey, alledged former Satanist converted to Christianity, and claims to be an estranged son of the Church of Satan's founder Anton LaVey. Exposed here. http://www.charismamag.com/site-arc.....prove-identity
- Megan Hodder, alledged convert from atheism to Catholicsm. Her story can be read here. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/fea.....e-me-to-faith/ Commentors on Ophelia Benson's blog on Freethought Blogs discussing the story discovered through Hodder's old Twitter feeds and Facebook posts that she was already Catholic long before she claims she had her conversion experience. http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterf.....comment-560902
- John Todd, an alledged former Satanist and Illuminati member converted to Christianity. His conversion story obsessed over implausible conspiracy theories involving the Illuminati. Exposed here. http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/todd00.htm
- Ergun Caner, an alledged former Jihadist Muslim converted to Christianity. Exposed here http://www.alternet.org/story/14679.....s_jihadi_fraud and here too. http://www.fakeexmuslims.com/ The second website has a whole series on You Tube showing Caner's numerous errors and misinterpretations about Islam, and how he constantly mispronounces Arabric words, gives the wrong definitions for Arabic words, and sometimes speaks total gibberish and relies on people's ignorance not to recognize what's actual Arabic and what's just stuff he's making up.
- Sister Maria Monk, alledged former Catholic nun who converted to Protestantism, and a product of 19th century anti-Catholicsm in the United States. She wrote a book called The Awful Disclosures and claimed to have escaped from a hell hole convent where Catholic priests molested nuns amongst other illicit behaviors. The book fed into anti-Catholic prejudice that was rampant at the time and was so popular amongst some Protestants that it kept being reprinted for decades. Exposed here. http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/....._of_maria_monk
- Rebecca Reed, another alledged former Catholic nun who converted to Protestantism. She lived around the same time as Monk and published a book called Six Months in a Convent that made similar accusations against the Ursuline convent in Charlestown, Massachusettes. The book caused so much outrage and fear of Catholics that Protestant rioters burned the convent down in 1834. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursuli....._Convent_Riots Catholic Answers also rebuts these convent horror stories. http://www.catholic.com/magazine/ar.....horror-stories
- - Sister Charlotte Wells, (real name Rhoda Edna Cackler, later changed to Charlotte Edna Keckler before adopting her pseudonym Charlotte Wells). Yet another alleged former Catholic nun who converted to Protestantism, and is pretty much a 20th century Maria Monk. Recordings of her conversion story are circulated amongst anti-Catholic fundamentalist Christians, although you can also find it uploaded to You Tube. http://www.donotlink.com/cc1h Charlotte rehashes much of Monk's story, claiming that the convent she came from was full of torture and sexual abuse. She also makes a lot of whoppers about Catholicism, such as claiming Catholics are allowed to steal up to $40 without having to confess the sin. Apart from her testimony, detailed biographical information on her is almost non-existent online (she died in 1983, long before the age of the internet), but some authors at the Catholic Texan blog (asides from the main author, also look up the commenter Jacko below) http://www.kmerian.blogspot.com/200.....charlotte.html used her real name, social security number, ancestry.com, and census data on the Keckler family to find where Charlotte was at different points in her life. It turns out that she stayed most of heir life in the United States and never left the country for the unnamed foreign convent she claims to have joined.
- Alberto Rivera, yet another alledged former Catholic whose conversion story to Protestantism is popular amongst anti-Catholic fundamentalists. Promotes tons of anti-Catholic conspiracies, claiming that the Jesuists assassiated Presidents Lincoln and Kennedy (Jesuit assassination conspiracies have actually been popular amongst some Protestants for centuries) and that the Catholic church created Islam as part of a plot to take control of Jeruselum. Fundamentalist cartoonist Jack Chick bases many of his anti-Catholic tracts on Rivera's material. Rivera has been exposed in places such as here http://web.archive.org/web/20051202.....w_page.asp?228 and Jack Chick refuses to retract any of his anti-Catholic tracts promoting Rivera's claims.
Further Reading
Swallowing the Camel’s The Prodigal Witch series, which debunks many alleged ex-Satanists and ex-witches I mentioned, such as Mike Warnke.
http://swallowingthecamel.wordpress.....rodigal-witch/
Against Satanic Panics, a website that chronicles the history of Satanic Ritual Abuse and the consequences of media sensations over the false stories of SRA.
http://theisticsatanism.com/asp/index.html
What’s The Harm article on people that were hurt by false Satanic Ritual Abuse allegations.
http://whatstheharm.net/satanicritualabuse.html
Stop Bad Therapy on Satanic Ritual Abuse and myths about recovering repressed memories.
http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/myths/sra.shtml
http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/myths/repress.shtml
The American Psychological Association on repressed memories of childhood abuse. Although it’s not related to satanic ritual abuse, the information here is still useful.
http://www.apa.org/topics/trauma/memories.aspx
The following is furshinku's contribution, a follow up on Fake conversions.
How to recognize fake conversion stories VERSION 2
Introduction
Conversion stories are a popular staple amongst many religious and non-religious people, explaining how and why a person changed their worldview and beliefs. The most famous conversion stories are probably those of the Apostle Paul and Saint Augustine of Hippo‘s book Confessions. They helped establish attributes that would become popular in conversion stories, a sinful life before converting, a turning point of some kind, and then fulfillment in their new found faith. Unfortunately, not every tale of a sinner finding religion is truthful. Amongst many real stories are stories that are made up by charlatans and attention-seekers to take advantage of people willing to believe them. This essay is meant to counter these fakers and show what kind of red flags are common in fake conversion stories.
Why is this important? Because fake conversion stories can do serious damage. Sadly, some hoaxers manage to become very popular through telling their false stories, garnering media attention and make lots of money through books and public speaking appearances. The worst fakers use their conversion stories to spread hatred and paranoia of other belief systems. The Satanic Panic of the 1980s, fueled by fake conversion stories of supposed ex-Satanists and pseudo-scientific forms of recovering repressed memories of abuse are a prime example of this. They are not merely harmless.
I was inspired to write this mainly by reading about the fake conversions of alleged ex-Satanists, so I will be using them as examples throughout, although I’ll throw in other types of fake conversions that I’ve seen online as well. This article doesn’t mean to say that every story of a Satanist or witch converting to another religion is false, but if you hear a conversion story that says ridiculous things that are less than honest, you should probably take the story with a grain of salt. Although I’ll be focusing on religious conversions, some of these guidelines can be applied to any kind of personal story that seems fishy.
Warning signs of a fake conversion story
-The story is rife with contradictions, or contradictions arise between retellings of the same story. If people start noticing contradictions, the author may "revise" their story to correct them. Comparing multiple retellings of a suspicious conversion may make contradictions and revisions apparent.
-Unlikely dates for events or inconsistent timelines, eg the author claims to have held a job or graduated college at a time they would have been too young.
-The conversion story plagiarizes from other sources, eg the author tries to seem like an expert on a topic by copying real experts, or elements of their life story are borrowed from other people's biographies.
-The author accuses their former belief system of committing heinous crimes with no evidence. Many supposed former Satanists and witches that became fundamentalist Christians claiming that Satanists sacrifice children and animals.
-Stereotypes or misrepresentations of other belief systems, eg "Catholics worship Mary," "all Muslims condone terrorism," "Jews control the banks," "Buddhists are idolators," and so on.
-False self-aggrandizing claims or claims of expertise or authority they don‘t really have, eg Young Earth Creationists claiming to have science degrees that actually come from diploma mills or unacredited universities. Similarly are people who falsely claim to have connections with infamous non-beleivers such as some ex-Satanists claiming to be estranged children of Church of Satan founder Anton LaVey.
-Phoney conspiracy theories, eg a conversion story that claims Satanists, Catholics, Jews, or some other religion that is percieved to be evil is under the control of the Illuminati, controlling the entertainment industry, etc.
THE WALL OF SHAME (in no particular order)
-Doreen Irvine, alleged convert from witchcraft to Christianity. Her 1973 book From Witchcraft to Christ helped start the Satanic Panic that grew later in the 80s, although the experiences she recounts are not as outrageous as later supposed ex-Satanists and witches. Exposed here. http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/dirvine.htm
-Lauren Stratford, (real name Laurel Wilson, also one time falsely claimed to be a Holocaust survivor named Laura Grabowski) alleged convert from Satanism to fundamentalist Christianity. She wrote a book called Satan's Underground recounting her life of abuse and conversion to Satanism. Cornerstone magazine, a Christian publication, discovered two contradictory conversion stories of her and exposed her here. http://www.answers.org/satan/satansideshow.html
-Tony Anthony, an evangelist who wrote an auto-biography called Taming the Tiger about his alledged conversion story. He made many self agrandizing claims such as winning secret martial arts tournaments in China and becoming a body gaurd at 18. He then claims for many years he became a violent criminal before his conversion. The director of his own ministry, Mike Hancock, investigated the claims in the book and found that Anthony had lied about his year of birth and plagairized from martial arts websites to create his descriptions of kung fu techniques. Exposed here. http://crosswire.org.uk/2013/07/01/.....ography-lies/#
-Mike Warnke, allged former Satanist covert to Christianity. He promoted many false "Satanic Ritual Abuse" stories. Exposed here http://www.answers.org/satan/warnke1.html
-Rabbi Sam Stern, convert from Orthodox Judaism to Messianic Judaism (Christianity with some Jewish practices thrown in). His conversion story can be read here. http://www.menorah.org/rabbisamstern.html A critique of it by Reuven Levinson, a counter missionary Jew, can be read here http://www.messianicjewishtruth.com.....stimonies.html which shows how Stern gets many things about Judaism wrong, such as saying that Medievel rabbi Maimonides' works are part of the Talmud (they're not) and describing Jewish school inaccurately.
- Kirk Cameron, former atheist convert to fundamentalist Christianity. Frequently claims to have been an atheist and supporter of evolution when he was young. He's now become a shill for Young Earth Creationism. His constant misrepresentations about evolution, eg claiming transitional fossils should produce hybrid species like a crocoduck, shows that it's more likely he was very misinformed about evolution.
- Athet Pyan Shinthaw Paulu, former Buddhist monk who converted to Chrsitianity. He claims to have once died for three days, had a horrifying vision of Hell, and then came back to life. While some Christian website unscrupoulously use his story to proselytize to buddhists, others have dissented and said it's full of crap such as here http://web.archive.org/web/20110216.....TICLE-0036.htm He's also exposed on some Buddhist websites like here http://www.buddha.sg/htm/general/faq01.htm which points out numerous errors such as how Paulu gets his own monk title wrong.
- Benjamin H. Freedman, a Jewish convert to Catholicism who became a huge anti-Semite. He frequently claimed that being a former Jew gave him insights in Jewish conspiracies to take over the world, and in 1961 he gave a very long winded speech about how evil Jews are that is still popular amongst racists, holocaust deniers, and anti-Jewish Christian and Muslim extremists even today. Since most of the sites that reproduce the 1961 speech and his other works tend to be hate websites, I will not link to them here. If you're really that curious to look them up, they're easily found on the web. I will however link to this rebuttal of his 1961 speech.
http://www.redstate.com/diary/barry.....-in-palestine/
- Jess LaVey, alledged former Satanist converted to Christianity, and claims to be an estranged son of the Church of Satan's founder Anton LaVey. Exposed here. http://www.charismamag.com/site-arc.....prove-identity
- Megan Hodder, alledged convert from atheism to Catholicsm. Her story can be read here. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/fea.....e-me-to-faith/ Commentors on Ophelia Benson's blog on Freethought Blogs discussing the story discovered through Hodder's old Twitter feeds and Facebook posts that she was already Catholic long before she claims she had her conversion experience. http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterf.....comment-560902
- John Todd, an alledged former Satanist and Illuminati member converted to Christianity. His conversion story obsessed over implausible conspiracy theories involving the Illuminati. Exposed here. http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/todd00.htm
- Ergun Caner, an alledged former Jihadist Muslim converted to Christianity. Exposed here http://www.alternet.org/story/14679.....s_jihadi_fraud and here too. http://www.fakeexmuslims.com/ The second website has a whole series on You Tube showing Caner's numerous errors and misinterpretations about Islam, and how he constantly mispronounces Arabric words, gives the wrong definitions for Arabic words, and sometimes speaks total gibberish and relies on people's ignorance not to recognize what's actual Arabic and what's just stuff he's making up.
- Sister Maria Monk, alledged former Catholic nun who converted to Protestantism, and a product of 19th century anti-Catholicsm in the United States. She wrote a book called The Awful Disclosures and claimed to have escaped from a hell hole convent where Catholic priests molested nuns amongst other illicit behaviors. The book fed into anti-Catholic prejudice that was rampant at the time and was so popular amongst some Protestants that it kept being reprinted for decades. Exposed here. http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/....._of_maria_monk
- Rebecca Reed, another alledged former Catholic nun who converted to Protestantism. She lived around the same time as Monk and published a book called Six Months in a Convent that made similar accusations against the Ursuline convent in Charlestown, Massachusettes. The book caused so much outrage and fear of Catholics that Protestant rioters burned the convent down in 1834. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursuli....._Convent_Riots Catholic Answers also rebuts these convent horror stories. http://www.catholic.com/magazine/ar.....horror-stories
- - Sister Charlotte Wells, (real name Rhoda Edna Cackler, later changed to Charlotte Edna Keckler before adopting her pseudonym Charlotte Wells). Yet another alleged former Catholic nun who converted to Protestantism, and is pretty much a 20th century Maria Monk. Recordings of her conversion story are circulated amongst anti-Catholic fundamentalist Christians, although you can also find it uploaded to You Tube. http://www.donotlink.com/cc1h Charlotte rehashes much of Monk's story, claiming that the convent she came from was full of torture and sexual abuse. She also makes a lot of whoppers about Catholicism, such as claiming Catholics are allowed to steal up to $40 without having to confess the sin. Apart from her testimony, detailed biographical information on her is almost non-existent online (she died in 1983, long before the age of the internet), but some authors at the Catholic Texan blog (asides from the main author, also look up the commenter Jacko below) http://www.kmerian.blogspot.com/200.....charlotte.html used her real name, social security number, ancestry.com, and census data on the Keckler family to find where Charlotte was at different points in her life. It turns out that she stayed most of heir life in the United States and never left the country for the unnamed foreign convent she claims to have joined.
- Alberto Rivera, yet another alledged former Catholic whose conversion story to Protestantism is popular amongst anti-Catholic fundamentalists. Promotes tons of anti-Catholic conspiracies, claiming that the Jesuists assassiated Presidents Lincoln and Kennedy (Jesuit assassination conspiracies have actually been popular amongst some Protestants for centuries) and that the Catholic church created Islam as part of a plot to take control of Jeruselum. Fundamentalist cartoonist Jack Chick bases many of his anti-Catholic tracts on Rivera's material. Rivera has been exposed in places such as here http://web.archive.org/web/20051202.....w_page.asp?228 and Jack Chick refuses to retract any of his anti-Catholic tracts promoting Rivera's claims.
Further Reading
Swallowing the Camel’s The Prodigal Witch series, which debunks many alleged ex-Satanists and ex-witches I mentioned, such as Mike Warnke.
http://swallowingthecamel.wordpress.....rodigal-witch/
Against Satanic Panics, a website that chronicles the history of Satanic Ritual Abuse and the consequences of media sensations over the false stories of SRA.
http://theisticsatanism.com/asp/index.html
What’s The Harm article on people that were hurt by false Satanic Ritual Abuse allegations.
http://whatstheharm.net/satanicritualabuse.html
Stop Bad Therapy on Satanic Ritual Abuse and myths about recovering repressed memories.
http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/myths/sra.shtml
http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/myths/repress.shtml
The American Psychological Association on repressed memories of childhood abuse. Although it’s not related to satanic ritual abuse, the information here is still useful.
http://www.apa.org/topics/trauma/memories.aspx
Something is Happening in Oklahoma... You NEED to read this!
Posted 10 years ago1. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend.....ents-monument/
2. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend.....spell-sabbath/
3. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend.....ibly-go-wrong/
4. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deacon.....a-state-house/
5. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/.....t-in-oklahoma/
6. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend.....too-religious/
7. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend.....ahoma-capitol/
TL;DR:
Christians put up a monument of the 10 Commandments on the grounds of the capitol building. Nothing new, right? People like us say "What about the separation between church and state?" Ah, but they have a way around that. They're going to accept ALL donated religious monuments. Enter the Satanic Temple, calling their bluff. With a local Hindu group following suit.
Yeah. You want to read it all now, don't you? You sadistic little heathens. <3
~Taggr
2. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend.....spell-sabbath/
3. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend.....ibly-go-wrong/
4. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deacon.....a-state-house/
5. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/.....t-in-oklahoma/
6. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend.....too-religious/
7. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend.....ahoma-capitol/
TL;DR:
Christians put up a monument of the 10 Commandments on the grounds of the capitol building. Nothing new, right? People like us say "What about the separation between church and state?" Ah, but they have a way around that. They're going to accept ALL donated religious monuments. Enter the Satanic Temple, calling their bluff. With a local Hindu group following suit.
Yeah. You want to read it all now, don't you? You sadistic little heathens. <3
~Taggr
Thankfulness and Arguments
Posted 10 years agoI'll take a moment to post what should have been posted yesterday. Although Thanksgiving is typically associated with an unpleasant history, its pleasant purpose says a lot. Of course, people always take it as a day to reiterate that they love their family and friends for some reason... Honestly, what psycho doesn't? Anyway, I actually thought long and hard about what I'm thankful for. This year, I'm thankful for curiosity. It advanced technology, human knowledge, care for the environment, and the world as a whole. Here's to curiosity. *raises glass*
On another note, I've taken up arguing with Ray Comfort fans on his facebook page as a 15th hobby of mine... I don't know why.
~Taggr
On another note, I've taken up arguing with Ray Comfort fans on his facebook page as a 15th hobby of mine... I don't know why.
~Taggr
Humanity and Morality
Posted 10 years agoOh, for the love of Loki... So, SO many times have I heard the argument "Science does not give us morality! We need Jeebuz!" Or, you know, god X. Well, of COURSE science doesn't give us morality! That's not what it's for. It's up to us- humanity- to come up with our morals.
And, by the way, humanity is not the only animal on earth who displays morality. Let me just provide a few links here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyolz2Qf1ms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7EG1eze2tQ (starting at 13:40)
There are others. Of course, we intellectuals know that any animal in a society cares for injured members of their group. Sometimes this can be applied to adopted members who are not necessarily of their species- sometimes even prey species. Knowing this, how can anyone claim that morality comes from religion? The need to think we're the dominant species in literally everything? How arrogant can you get?
My firm belief is (and my beliefs are only as firm as the evidence) that the need to work with others developed the need for compassion and empathy for others. This is what sparked morality. Religion can beat people over the head and force them to follow the morality that their specific society evolved with, but it is not the source of morality at large. The real source? Might be a shock. It's evolution.
And, by the way, humanity is not the only animal on earth who displays morality. Let me just provide a few links here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyolz2Qf1ms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7EG1eze2tQ (starting at 13:40)
There are others. Of course, we intellectuals know that any animal in a society cares for injured members of their group. Sometimes this can be applied to adopted members who are not necessarily of their species- sometimes even prey species. Knowing this, how can anyone claim that morality comes from religion? The need to think we're the dominant species in literally everything? How arrogant can you get?
My firm belief is (and my beliefs are only as firm as the evidence) that the need to work with others developed the need for compassion and empathy for others. This is what sparked morality. Religion can beat people over the head and force them to follow the morality that their specific society evolved with, but it is not the source of morality at large. The real source? Might be a shock. It's evolution.
What Makes A God?
Posted 10 years agoA thought flittered into my mind as I've been obsessing over the new Thor movie. What qualifications are indicitive of a god worthy to be worshiped? As anti-theists, we hold to the idea that even if god X was real, we would hold them to scrutiny and determine wether or not they deserve worship before we start blindly following them. So I ask you, fellow heathens- What, in your view, makes a god? What qualities would prove them worthy to be worshipped?
I Feel Betrayed...
Posted 10 years agoIt's been expressed on this account before that your pagemaster here grew up in the mormon religion. Although I cannot recall a day in which I actually believed in the god of my family's religion, I held on to the comforts that it promised- specifically that my parents would never get a divorce (HAFUCKINGHAHA) and that if that afterlife did turn out to be true, at least they had things to do, unlike regular christians who just floated down gold streets visiting their cousins... or whatever.
But like any intelligent teenager, I questioned what was taught to me and it all sounded like rubbish. The bible itself was easy to refute, so I guess I felt no real need to refute the book of mormon, which was taught in toe with the bible in the church. Later, however, I read an excerpt from the book "The Last Confession and Statement of John D. Lee". It was disturbing, but for some reason, it made sense to me, so it I guess it didn't surprise me. Now I've come across some information that I must admit has floored me to the point where... I don't even know what to feel about it. I've never believed, so I don't know why this has affected me so much. Maybe it's just a further testament of how far humans will go to be obeyed. I say "humans" and not "religion" at this point because I think the movement is still fresh enough to be called a conspiracy rather than a religion.
So here's what I've found out. Apparently there was a book written a few years before Smith started work on the book of mormon. This book was a fiction about tribes in central america who'd moved north from south america and had actually come from the Mediterranean to start. There was a giant battle between them and both tribes were killed off. For those who don't know, the BoM follows people from the mediterranean, across the atlantic (it explains how), to south america, and moving north from there. In the 1950s, the book was discovered by a collector of books by unknown authors and there was an article written in the paper about this book, noting its similarities to the BoM including places and names. The only difference was the biblical-sounding narrations. Apparently, upon seeing this article, the church immediately bought up all the printed books (there weren't many) so there wouldn't be any left on the street for anyone to confirm this.
I don't know the whos, whats, and wheres, but the author of that fictional book seems to be Solomon Spalding. You can read more about what else is wrong with the BoM here.
Like I said, I don't really know why I feel so bothered by this when I never believed any of it in the first place. In any case, it is just another example of what people will do for money and what people are willing to believe just because it makes them feel good.
I think I gotta go lay down...
But like any intelligent teenager, I questioned what was taught to me and it all sounded like rubbish. The bible itself was easy to refute, so I guess I felt no real need to refute the book of mormon, which was taught in toe with the bible in the church. Later, however, I read an excerpt from the book "The Last Confession and Statement of John D. Lee". It was disturbing, but for some reason, it made sense to me, so it I guess it didn't surprise me. Now I've come across some information that I must admit has floored me to the point where... I don't even know what to feel about it. I've never believed, so I don't know why this has affected me so much. Maybe it's just a further testament of how far humans will go to be obeyed. I say "humans" and not "religion" at this point because I think the movement is still fresh enough to be called a conspiracy rather than a religion.
So here's what I've found out. Apparently there was a book written a few years before Smith started work on the book of mormon. This book was a fiction about tribes in central america who'd moved north from south america and had actually come from the Mediterranean to start. There was a giant battle between them and both tribes were killed off. For those who don't know, the BoM follows people from the mediterranean, across the atlantic (it explains how), to south america, and moving north from there. In the 1950s, the book was discovered by a collector of books by unknown authors and there was an article written in the paper about this book, noting its similarities to the BoM including places and names. The only difference was the biblical-sounding narrations. Apparently, upon seeing this article, the church immediately bought up all the printed books (there weren't many) so there wouldn't be any left on the street for anyone to confirm this.
I don't know the whos, whats, and wheres, but the author of that fictional book seems to be Solomon Spalding. You can read more about what else is wrong with the BoM here.
Like I said, I don't really know why I feel so bothered by this when I never believed any of it in the first place. In any case, it is just another example of what people will do for money and what people are willing to believe just because it makes them feel good.
I think I gotta go lay down...
Dishonestly Certain (Comforting)
Posted 10 years agoBefore the essay "Fake Conversions" was sent to me, I was watching notorious creationist, Ray Comfort, in a few different interviews. As I watched, I saw the gaps of years between each interview and I quickly noticed one thing that kept popping up. That is- the exact same argument for his side. Apparently his script is so perfect that he feels compelled to spew it multiple times in each interview. Let me be clear- no SANE person does this.
The definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". While this may leash and collar those too young or naive to distrust that teddy-bear like face and intelligent accent, using these same lines on people of real knowledge is simply inducing argument suicide- and it shows this again and again every time he is absolutely mauled by logic.
For those of you who didn't already know, Ray has been walked through the evolutionary process countless times. At the end of every explanation, wether he understands it or not, he simply says "I don't believe that." and moves on. Well, if it's that simple, why evangelize at all? We can say that as well to his explanations.
In light of the essay "Fake Conversions", telling you how to spot fakers and ignore and/or discredit them, I offer this probably well-known advice as well: Don't engage thick-headed people like Comfort. Back away slowly and, if you feel compelled to, take up the opposite pedestal and be an advocate for reality.
The definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". While this may leash and collar those too young or naive to distrust that teddy-bear like face and intelligent accent, using these same lines on people of real knowledge is simply inducing argument suicide- and it shows this again and again every time he is absolutely mauled by logic.
For those of you who didn't already know, Ray has been walked through the evolutionary process countless times. At the end of every explanation, wether he understands it or not, he simply says "I don't believe that." and moves on. Well, if it's that simple, why evangelize at all? We can say that as well to his explanations.
In light of the essay "Fake Conversions", telling you how to spot fakers and ignore and/or discredit them, I offer this probably well-known advice as well: Don't engage thick-headed people like Comfort. Back away slowly and, if you feel compelled to, take up the opposite pedestal and be an advocate for reality.
The Differences
Posted 10 years agoThere's often a lot of debate about what defines the various forms of skepticism. Here are the current definitions. Of course, these are subject to change with new information.
Agnostic: One who has not been convinced that evidence provided has proved or disproved a/any god(s) and/or supernatural being/force. // One who believes supernatural beings/forces cannot be proved or disproved.
Anti-Theist: One who does not believe the evidence provided is proof of a/any god(s). // One who holds the stance that if acceptable proof does come forward, the holiness and worship of the proven deity is subject to scrutiny.
Atheist: One who has not been convinced that evidence provided is proof of a/any god(s).
Skeptic: One who has not been convinced that evidence provided is proof of a/any supernatural being/force.
These definitions are generally used alone, but alone, they are very limited, as they only really explain a portion of a stance. For instance, even a theist can be a skeptic in regards to other religions. Similarly, an atheist can be an agnostic in regards to beliefs that do not necessarily include deities, or even all beliefs of a religion except the deity. This is why I feel the need to specify the group as anti-THEISM only. It shows the stance we have on deities while allowing agnostics and even followers of other beliefs a place to at least be recognized as fellow godless heathens with the same discontent as we atheists have for the highest ranking supernatural beings. Rabid skeptics can say what they want about them- they're still welcome members.
Agnostic: One who has not been convinced that evidence provided has proved or disproved a/any god(s) and/or supernatural being/force. // One who believes supernatural beings/forces cannot be proved or disproved.
Anti-Theist: One who does not believe the evidence provided is proof of a/any god(s). // One who holds the stance that if acceptable proof does come forward, the holiness and worship of the proven deity is subject to scrutiny.
Atheist: One who has not been convinced that evidence provided is proof of a/any god(s).
Skeptic: One who has not been convinced that evidence provided is proof of a/any supernatural being/force.
These definitions are generally used alone, but alone, they are very limited, as they only really explain a portion of a stance. For instance, even a theist can be a skeptic in regards to other religions. Similarly, an atheist can be an agnostic in regards to beliefs that do not necessarily include deities, or even all beliefs of a religion except the deity. This is why I feel the need to specify the group as anti-THEISM only. It shows the stance we have on deities while allowing agnostics and even followers of other beliefs a place to at least be recognized as fellow godless heathens with the same discontent as we atheists have for the highest ranking supernatural beings. Rabid skeptics can say what they want about them- they're still welcome members.
Fake Conversions
Posted 10 years agoThis essay comes from furshinku. It was suggested that it be uploaded in parts, but I really think the whole thing is too important to take in bit by bit. Things may be added or edited as time comes.
Edit: I meant to add this before posting- PLEASE SHARE your experiences with or knowledge of false converts! A list of known fakers will be a tremendous help to those of us who come across a friend who is being fished into religion by these story-tellers. Falling for religion by someone's honest belief is one thing, but being lead to it by blatant lies is another thing entirely. That is one thing I know true believers and atheists can both agree on.
How to recognize fake religious conversions
Introduction
Conversion stories are a popular staple amongst many religious and non-religious people, explaining how and why a person changed their worldview and beliefs. The most famous conversion stories are probably those of the Apostle Paul and Saint Augustine of Hippo‘s book Confessions. They helped establish attributes that would become popular in conversion stories, a sinful life before converting, a turning point of some kind, and then fulfillment in their newfound faith. Unfortunately, not every tale of a sinner finding religion is truthful. Amongst many real stories are stories that are made up by charlatans and attention-seekers to take advantage of people willing to believe them. This is meant to counter these fakers and show what kind of red flags are common in fake conversion stories.
Why is this important? Because fake conversion stories can do serious damage. Sadly, some hoaxsters manage to become very popular through telling their false stories, garnering media attention and make lots of money through books and public speaking appearances. The worst fakers use their conversion stories to spread hatred and paranoia of other belief systems. The Satanic Panic of the 1980s, fueled by fake conversion stories of supposed ex-Satanists and pseudo-scientific forms of recovering repressed memories of abuse are a prime example of this. They are not to be thought of as harmless
I was inspired to write this mainly by reading about the fake conversions of alleged ex-Satanists, so I will be using them as examples throughout, although I’ll throw in other types of fake conversions that I’ve seen online as well. This article doesn’t mean to say that every story of a Satanist or witch converting to Christianity is false, but if you hear a conversion story that says ridiculous things that are less than honest, you should probably take the story with a grain of salt. Although I’ll be focusing on religious conversions, some of these guidelines can be applied to any kind of personal story that seems fishy.
The story is rife with contradictions, or contradictions arise between retellings of the same story
This isn‘t a completely sure fire sign that a conversion story may be fake. After all, it‘s possible people may misremember things or misspeak. But if very important details are self contradictory, then the story should probably be treated with skepticism. One questionable conversion story was that of Doreen Irvine and her 1973 book From Witchcraft to Christ, detailing her life as a witch and conversion to Christianity. In one part of her book she says she was invited to a meeting of witches after she overheard two members talking about it, but later on she’s taught a Satanic rule (she conflates witches with Satanism throughout her book) to “never reveal the whereabouts of a Satanic temple or what goes on in it to an outsider.” There’s also the rule “Never enter a Christian church,” but then she describes herself and her fellow witches entering churches to steal Bibles and burn them. A fuller analysis of From Witchcraft to Christ can be read here. http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/dirvine.htm
It also helps to compare multiple retellings of a conversion story, to ensure that parts aren’t being changed or exaggerated over time. This is how the Christian magazine Cornerstone exposed Lauren Stratford (real name Laurel Wilson), an alleged Satanist convert to Christianity, as a fake. Stratford wrote a book entitled Satan’s Underground in 1988 which chronicled her years of abuse as a child and being forced into Satanism by a pornography ringer named Victor when she was 19. Cornerstone tracked down an earlier testimony Stratford gave in 1985 after she became involved with a Satanic Ritual Abuse case in her town of Bakersfield which was completely different from what she described in Satan‘s Underground. By interviewing her friends and family, they learned Stratford’s real name and that she had been Christian all along. Their exposé of Stratford can be read here. http://www.answers.org/satan/satansideshow.html Also, sometimes contradictions between retellings may arise if an earlier version of a story were shown to have false details and in latter versions the narrator quietly “corrects” themselves by omitting them. Comparing multiple versions of the same conversion story should make ret-conning easily apparent though.
Unlikely dates for events or inconsistent timelines
If a conversion story gives dates for certain events, it might be a good idea to check whether the dates add up. Sometimes you might discover problems such as the author lying about their age and being too young or too old to do certain things such as attend college or join the military during the times they say they did. Evangelist Tony Anthony wrote an auto-biography detailing his conversion entitled Taming the Tiger and part of it recalled how in the 80s he got a job as a body guard. The director of Anthony‘s own ministry, Mike Hancock, was unsure of the book’s veracity and began an investigation into it. He found that Anthony’s birth certificate said he was born in 1971, meaning that he would have only been a teenager during his bodyguard years. He also found that Anthony‘s account of his grandfather taking him to China for Kung Fu training when he was four was implausible because his grandfather died seven years before his birth. http://crosswire.org.uk/2013/07/01/.....ography-lies/#
The conversion story plagiarizes from other sources
Although search engines and plagiarism checking programs have made it more difficult to get away with plagiarism, some people still do it anyway and hope their intended audience won‘t notice. I’ve actually had an experience with this myself a few years ago. I saw a video by You Tube fundamentalist VenomfangX in which he claimed the Bible had scientific foreknowledge, but when I looked up one of the verses he cited, I found that he was copying a Ray Comfort website word for word (a typo from Comfort‘s site which VFX accidentally kept intact in his quotation is what gave him away). Plagiarism will reveal that an author may not really have experiences they say they have, or are just plain lazy at writing. This was another red flag that showed that Tony Anthony’s book was suspect. When Hancock and his investigators researched Anthony’s martial arts background, they found that his descriptions of Kung Fu techniques were merely copied from martial arts websites.
Accuses occult groups of committing heinous crimes with no evidence
In many ex-Satanist and ex-witch conversion stories, the narrator might say that they or the groups they were part of would perform animal or human sacrifices, or commit other outrageous criminal activities such as abusing drugs or owning sex slaves. Stories like these became very popular during the Satanic Panic of the 80s, in which many Christian evangelists who claimed to be former Satanists such as Christian comedian Mike Warnke and many others claimed that there were underground networks of occultists committing ritual murders and other lurid activities. But the people telling these stories rarely described themselves going to the police to report these illegal activities. Neither did they cite police reports or news stories talking about animals or people mysteriously disappearing due to being taken away by occultists to be sacrificed. (they will probably claim that there are conspiracies to cover up these activities, which I will deal with later) Usually the “evidence” for Satanic Ritual Abuse rested on victims going through unapproved forms of repressed memory therapy, which would inadvertently implant false memories of abuse. As psychologists and other investigators started to realize that claims of Satanic Ritual Abuse were unsupported by evidence, people such as Warnke have ended up being discredited; the Christian magazine Cornerstone did an exposé on him a few years after they exposed Lauren Stratford http://www.answers.org/satan/warnke1.html and by interviewing Warnke’s friends and family, they found that he was never a Satanist to begin with, and much of his reported history was fabricated. Despite many of these people being exposed as frauds, the conversion stories of people such as Irvine, Stratford, and Warnke are still used by some to raise irrational fear of Satanists and practitioners of Wicca. (see the blog The Wild Hunt http://wildhunt.org/ for numerous examples of religious groups and even politicians vilifying Pagans and repeating stereotypes like they worship Satan or are all demon possessed)
Stereotypes or misrepresentations other belief systems
As shown above, fake ex-Satanist and ex-witch testimonies tend to depict occult groups as secretive and committing all sorts of crimes. They also tend to conflate Satanism, Paganism, Wicca, Freemasonry, and the New Age all together as one, or at least as working together with each other. In reality though, the people that belong to all these belief systems tend to be no weirder than anyone else, and don’t believe in sacrificing humans or animals or enacting any of the other accusations brought against them. Researching and staying informed about the beliefs of many religions will help in recognizing misconceptions or deliberate mischaracterizations, and assist in opposing the vilification of other belief systems. So if you hear conversion stories such as an ex-occultist that claims “Wiccans worship Satan,” or an ex-Buddhist story that says “Buddhists are idolaters,” or an ex-Jew that says “Jews control all the banks and the Holocaust didn‘t happen,” these are serious warning signs that the narrator is either very misguided or is lying!
Sometimes the narrator of a conversion story won’t vilify a religion, but will just say things that are factually wrong or inaccurate. This doesn’t mean that a conversion didn’t happen, although it could indicate the narrator is confused or isn’t being completely upfront about themself. One example would be Rabbi San Stern, a Jewish convert to Christianity. His full story can be read here http://www.menorah.org/rabbisamstern.html , and a critique of his testimony by Reuven Levinson, a counter missionary Jew, can be seen here. http://www.messianicjewishtruth.com.....stimonies.html In his conversion story, Rabbi Stern says that he grew up in a strict Orthodox Jewish family, yet when he describes the various Jewish books he had to study, he describes the Talmud as “the ancient [and] now obsolete Jewish books of jurisprudence…” The Talmud is a very important collection of oral traditions explaining how to interpret Jewish laws, and is believed by Orthodox Jews to have been passed down from God to Moses. http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm#Talmud So for a former Orthodox Jew to describe the Talmud as “obsolete” is rather strange! Levinson also points out other problems, such as how Rabbi Stern describes Jewish school inaccurately.
Failure of basic facts
If you run into a preacher that claims to be an ex-member of Anton LaVey‘s Church of Satan, ask them if they can name some of the 9 Satanic statements, the 9 Satanic sins, or the 11 Satanic rules of Earth. These are some of the basic beliefs of LaVeyan Satanism and can easily be read on their website. http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Theory.html They are not kept secret from outsiders. If the preacher can’t name them or treats them as if they were teachings that only the initiated could know, they’re likely just pulling your leg. You can do this to check if the narrator really knows what they are talking about. One egregious example of this is former child actor Kirk Cameron, an atheist convert to fundamentalist Christianity. He claims to have once been a strong believer in evolution when he was young, but whenever he describes evolution on TV appearances or in debates, he uses the straw man caricature of evolution that creationists propagate, claiming that chimera creatures such as a crocoduck would be proof of evolution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY6pKsBR8UQ A lesser known conversion story rife with errors is that of Athet Pyan Shinthaw Paulu, a Buddhist convert to Christianity whose story is usually used by evangelists proselytizing in Eastern countries. Paulu claimed to be a Buddhist monk in Burma who had died after being infected with Yellow Fever and Malaria at the same time. He miraculously came back to life three days later and described having a vision of hell while he was unconscious. Some Buddhist websites such as this one http://www.buddha.sg/htm/general/faq01.htm and some Christian ones too http://web.archive.org/web/20110216.....TICLE-0036.htm chronicle Paulu’s multiple errors, such as pointing out that Yellow Fever doesn’t exist in Burma. Paulu even got his own monk title wrong!
Another thing to beware of are conversion stories that repeat debunked urban legends, such as the claim that Harry Potter is causing multitudes of people to convert to Satanism (the source for this claim is actually a parody article from the Onion which some people mistook to be real), that the Proctor and Gamble corporation symbol is satanic, or that the FCC is going to ban religious broadcasting. The website Snopes http://www.snopes.com/ takes apart a lot of these urban legends and rumors. Also beware if the narrator touts pious frauds as authentic, such as fraudulent faith healers or forged religious artifacts or documents like the Archko Volumes. (fake documents concerning Jesus allegedly from Caiaphas and Pontius Pilate)
False self-aggrandizing claims or claims of expertise or authority they don‘t really have
This will be familiar to those of you that follow the evolution/creationism conflict. A Young Earth Creationist who claims to be an “expert” in science (eg “Dr.” Kent Hovind) touting credentials that actually came from a diploma mill or are irrelevant to biology. Some authors of fake conversion stories will exaggerate their personal achievements to sound more impressive and endear their audience. Tony Anthony for instance said that he was a three times Kung Fu world champion. Investigators looking into his past could not find any evidence for this claim, and Anthony ridiculously countered that the tournaments he participated in were so specialized within China that the outside world wouldn’t know about them. But as stated above, the discovery that he was plagiarizing martial arts websites cast strong doubts to how much he really knew about Kung Fu.
Speakers or authors that once served in the military might exaggerate or lie about their service. Father John Corapi, a popular Catholic speaker and a former member of the Society of Our Lady of the Most Holy Trinity (SOLT), used to say in his conversion story that he was a Green Beret in Vietnam. Corapi’s claims about his military service were challenged by the POW Network, an organization which investigates people who falsely claim to be POWs or lie about their military records, and found that he had never served in the Green Berets. (their page on Father Corapi seems to have been taken down, however it is preserved on the Wayback Machine http://web.archive.org/web/20120206.....phonies344.htm ) Corapi’s online biographies then quietly removed his Green Beret claim and when Corapi re-told his conversion story, he’d say he served in Vietnam without mentioning the Green Berets. Since then, in 2011 he resigned from SOLT after accusations of sexual misconduct, drug use, and violating his vow of poverty. http://soltnews.blogspot.com/2011/0.....hn-corapi.html
In regard to ex-occultist conversions, the narrator might claim to be a credible expert on the occult because they once held an exalted position such as being a satanic high priest. (the Church of Satan’s founder Anton LaVey once joked, “where are all the low priests?”) For instance, Doreen Irvine claimed in From Witchcraft to Christ that she ascended in the ranks amongst her fellow witches and was elected the Black Witch Queen, although she doesn’t describe what kind of duties her position entailed. They might also claim to be a friend or relative of an infamous non-believer. This does happen in real life sometimes, such as atheist Madalyn Murray O’Hair‘s son William, who converted to Christianity, and the late Christopher Hitchen’s brother Peter, who also became Christian. But amongst real cases there are bogus ones as well. Jess LaVey was one such faker, who falsely claimed to be a long lost son of Anton LaVey who left Satanism for Christianity after years of abuse from his father. http://www.charismamag.com/site-arc.....prove-identity
Evidence that the conversion never happened…
… because the person was a believer to begin with and made the whole thing up. This is one you should be very careful with. It’s annoying to hear Christians automatically dismiss people that de-converted as not being “true-Christians” or atheists say that people who convert to a religion weren’t really non-believers. But sometimes evidence may compel the conclusion that a conversion story is totally bogus and the narrator never changed their religion to begin with. As mentioned above people like Lauren Stratford had made up their conversions completely. But I’d like to mention a more contemporary story for this section as well.
An recent example would be the conversion story of Megan Hodder, http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/fea.....e-me-to-faith/ a claimed former atheist convert to Catholicism. In her conversion story she says she used to be a large fan of “new-atheists” such as Dawkins and Harris when she was young, but began considering Catholicism after reading one of Pope Benedict XVI’s works and eventually converted. Ophelia Benson on Free Thought Blogs saw Hodder’s story and mocking responded with a short blog post entitled “Saved by Ratzinger.” A short time later some of the commenters on Benson’s blog decided to go through Hodder’s old Twitter feeds and Facebook postings to see if they could find any atheist writings by her. But instead they found that she was already Catholic before her “conversion.” http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterf.....comment-560902
Phoney conspiracy theories
Of all the warning signs on this list, I would say this is probably the biggest one. Claims of conspiracy theories tend to be the most audacious, inciting fear of shadowy forces with massive numbers of people behind them that are out to control everyone. For some reason, religious fundamentalism and conspiracy theorists tend to go hand-in-hand. (Jerri Massi, author of Blog on the Way, a blog on opposing abuse in churches, has two articles explaining why this might be so http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=4057 ) Mike Warnke and numerous alleged ex-Satanists such as John Todd would claim that Satanists were in league with secret societies like the Illuminati and the New World Order, and were manipulating events all around the world. Fake conspiracy theories like these are yet another way to vilify other religions (or any group which the narrator dislikes for that matter). They’re also dangerous because they tend to rely on every logical fallacy imaginable in order to support themselves (confirmation bias, contrived ad hoc hypotheses, and so on) and self sealing argumentation which can be used as an easy get-out-of-jail card to dismiss any criticism. If people doubt the validity of a conversion story, the narrator can say doubters are all part of a conspiracy against them. If a conversion story is said to portray other religions inaccurately, the narrator can just say there’s a conspiracy covering up the “real” beliefs and practices of other religions. If there’s a lack if evidence supporting the existence of underground occult groups and their plots to rule the world, the narrator will say there‘s a conspiracy covering up their activities. (and may even invoke the old saying “the greatest trick the devil ever pulled is convincing people he doesn‘t exist”) The irony of many of these conspiracy theories is that they’re not really secret at all; searching “satanic conspiracy” or similar keywords on the web will give you tons of websites explaining many of these conspiracies in great detail. A cartoon on Sci-ence.org entitled The Red Flags of Quackery parodies the non-secrecy of these “secret” conspiracies quite well, “There is a world-wide plot to hide the truth. But it‘s okay, I looked on Google and unraveled the hell out of it.” If these conspiracy theories really were true, one has to wonder why these shadowy groups even allow people like Warnke and Todd to speak out against them and divulge their plans in front of large audiences of people.
Further Reading
Swallowing the Camel’s The Prodigal Witch series, which debunks many alleged ex-Satanists and ex-witches I mentioned, such as Mike Warnke. http://swallowingthecamel.wordpress.....rodigal-witch/
Against Satanic Panics, a website that chronicles the history of Satanic Ritual Abuse and the consequences of media sensations over the false stories of SRA.
http://theisticsatanism.com/asp/index.html
What’s The Harm article on people that were hurt by false Satanic Ritual Abuse allegations.
http://whatstheharm.net/satanicritualabuse.html
Stop Bad Therapy on Satanic Ritual Abuse and myths about recovering repressed memories.
http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/myths/sra.shtml
http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/myths/repress.shtml
The American Psychological Association on repressed memories of childhood abuse. Although it’s not related to satanic ritual abuse, the information here is still useful.
http://www.apa.org/topics/trauma/memories.aspx
Edit: I meant to add this before posting- PLEASE SHARE your experiences with or knowledge of false converts! A list of known fakers will be a tremendous help to those of us who come across a friend who is being fished into religion by these story-tellers. Falling for religion by someone's honest belief is one thing, but being lead to it by blatant lies is another thing entirely. That is one thing I know true believers and atheists can both agree on.
How to recognize fake religious conversions
Introduction
Conversion stories are a popular staple amongst many religious and non-religious people, explaining how and why a person changed their worldview and beliefs. The most famous conversion stories are probably those of the Apostle Paul and Saint Augustine of Hippo‘s book Confessions. They helped establish attributes that would become popular in conversion stories, a sinful life before converting, a turning point of some kind, and then fulfillment in their newfound faith. Unfortunately, not every tale of a sinner finding religion is truthful. Amongst many real stories are stories that are made up by charlatans and attention-seekers to take advantage of people willing to believe them. This is meant to counter these fakers and show what kind of red flags are common in fake conversion stories.
Why is this important? Because fake conversion stories can do serious damage. Sadly, some hoaxsters manage to become very popular through telling their false stories, garnering media attention and make lots of money through books and public speaking appearances. The worst fakers use their conversion stories to spread hatred and paranoia of other belief systems. The Satanic Panic of the 1980s, fueled by fake conversion stories of supposed ex-Satanists and pseudo-scientific forms of recovering repressed memories of abuse are a prime example of this. They are not to be thought of as harmless
I was inspired to write this mainly by reading about the fake conversions of alleged ex-Satanists, so I will be using them as examples throughout, although I’ll throw in other types of fake conversions that I’ve seen online as well. This article doesn’t mean to say that every story of a Satanist or witch converting to Christianity is false, but if you hear a conversion story that says ridiculous things that are less than honest, you should probably take the story with a grain of salt. Although I’ll be focusing on religious conversions, some of these guidelines can be applied to any kind of personal story that seems fishy.
The story is rife with contradictions, or contradictions arise between retellings of the same story
This isn‘t a completely sure fire sign that a conversion story may be fake. After all, it‘s possible people may misremember things or misspeak. But if very important details are self contradictory, then the story should probably be treated with skepticism. One questionable conversion story was that of Doreen Irvine and her 1973 book From Witchcraft to Christ, detailing her life as a witch and conversion to Christianity. In one part of her book she says she was invited to a meeting of witches after she overheard two members talking about it, but later on she’s taught a Satanic rule (she conflates witches with Satanism throughout her book) to “never reveal the whereabouts of a Satanic temple or what goes on in it to an outsider.” There’s also the rule “Never enter a Christian church,” but then she describes herself and her fellow witches entering churches to steal Bibles and burn them. A fuller analysis of From Witchcraft to Christ can be read here. http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/dirvine.htm
It also helps to compare multiple retellings of a conversion story, to ensure that parts aren’t being changed or exaggerated over time. This is how the Christian magazine Cornerstone exposed Lauren Stratford (real name Laurel Wilson), an alleged Satanist convert to Christianity, as a fake. Stratford wrote a book entitled Satan’s Underground in 1988 which chronicled her years of abuse as a child and being forced into Satanism by a pornography ringer named Victor when she was 19. Cornerstone tracked down an earlier testimony Stratford gave in 1985 after she became involved with a Satanic Ritual Abuse case in her town of Bakersfield which was completely different from what she described in Satan‘s Underground. By interviewing her friends and family, they learned Stratford’s real name and that she had been Christian all along. Their exposé of Stratford can be read here. http://www.answers.org/satan/satansideshow.html Also, sometimes contradictions between retellings may arise if an earlier version of a story were shown to have false details and in latter versions the narrator quietly “corrects” themselves by omitting them. Comparing multiple versions of the same conversion story should make ret-conning easily apparent though.
Unlikely dates for events or inconsistent timelines
If a conversion story gives dates for certain events, it might be a good idea to check whether the dates add up. Sometimes you might discover problems such as the author lying about their age and being too young or too old to do certain things such as attend college or join the military during the times they say they did. Evangelist Tony Anthony wrote an auto-biography detailing his conversion entitled Taming the Tiger and part of it recalled how in the 80s he got a job as a body guard. The director of Anthony‘s own ministry, Mike Hancock, was unsure of the book’s veracity and began an investigation into it. He found that Anthony’s birth certificate said he was born in 1971, meaning that he would have only been a teenager during his bodyguard years. He also found that Anthony‘s account of his grandfather taking him to China for Kung Fu training when he was four was implausible because his grandfather died seven years before his birth. http://crosswire.org.uk/2013/07/01/.....ography-lies/#
The conversion story plagiarizes from other sources
Although search engines and plagiarism checking programs have made it more difficult to get away with plagiarism, some people still do it anyway and hope their intended audience won‘t notice. I’ve actually had an experience with this myself a few years ago. I saw a video by You Tube fundamentalist VenomfangX in which he claimed the Bible had scientific foreknowledge, but when I looked up one of the verses he cited, I found that he was copying a Ray Comfort website word for word (a typo from Comfort‘s site which VFX accidentally kept intact in his quotation is what gave him away). Plagiarism will reveal that an author may not really have experiences they say they have, or are just plain lazy at writing. This was another red flag that showed that Tony Anthony’s book was suspect. When Hancock and his investigators researched Anthony’s martial arts background, they found that his descriptions of Kung Fu techniques were merely copied from martial arts websites.
Accuses occult groups of committing heinous crimes with no evidence
In many ex-Satanist and ex-witch conversion stories, the narrator might say that they or the groups they were part of would perform animal or human sacrifices, or commit other outrageous criminal activities such as abusing drugs or owning sex slaves. Stories like these became very popular during the Satanic Panic of the 80s, in which many Christian evangelists who claimed to be former Satanists such as Christian comedian Mike Warnke and many others claimed that there were underground networks of occultists committing ritual murders and other lurid activities. But the people telling these stories rarely described themselves going to the police to report these illegal activities. Neither did they cite police reports or news stories talking about animals or people mysteriously disappearing due to being taken away by occultists to be sacrificed. (they will probably claim that there are conspiracies to cover up these activities, which I will deal with later) Usually the “evidence” for Satanic Ritual Abuse rested on victims going through unapproved forms of repressed memory therapy, which would inadvertently implant false memories of abuse. As psychologists and other investigators started to realize that claims of Satanic Ritual Abuse were unsupported by evidence, people such as Warnke have ended up being discredited; the Christian magazine Cornerstone did an exposé on him a few years after they exposed Lauren Stratford http://www.answers.org/satan/warnke1.html and by interviewing Warnke’s friends and family, they found that he was never a Satanist to begin with, and much of his reported history was fabricated. Despite many of these people being exposed as frauds, the conversion stories of people such as Irvine, Stratford, and Warnke are still used by some to raise irrational fear of Satanists and practitioners of Wicca. (see the blog The Wild Hunt http://wildhunt.org/ for numerous examples of religious groups and even politicians vilifying Pagans and repeating stereotypes like they worship Satan or are all demon possessed)
Stereotypes or misrepresentations other belief systems
As shown above, fake ex-Satanist and ex-witch testimonies tend to depict occult groups as secretive and committing all sorts of crimes. They also tend to conflate Satanism, Paganism, Wicca, Freemasonry, and the New Age all together as one, or at least as working together with each other. In reality though, the people that belong to all these belief systems tend to be no weirder than anyone else, and don’t believe in sacrificing humans or animals or enacting any of the other accusations brought against them. Researching and staying informed about the beliefs of many religions will help in recognizing misconceptions or deliberate mischaracterizations, and assist in opposing the vilification of other belief systems. So if you hear conversion stories such as an ex-occultist that claims “Wiccans worship Satan,” or an ex-Buddhist story that says “Buddhists are idolaters,” or an ex-Jew that says “Jews control all the banks and the Holocaust didn‘t happen,” these are serious warning signs that the narrator is either very misguided or is lying!
Sometimes the narrator of a conversion story won’t vilify a religion, but will just say things that are factually wrong or inaccurate. This doesn’t mean that a conversion didn’t happen, although it could indicate the narrator is confused or isn’t being completely upfront about themself. One example would be Rabbi San Stern, a Jewish convert to Christianity. His full story can be read here http://www.menorah.org/rabbisamstern.html , and a critique of his testimony by Reuven Levinson, a counter missionary Jew, can be seen here. http://www.messianicjewishtruth.com.....stimonies.html In his conversion story, Rabbi Stern says that he grew up in a strict Orthodox Jewish family, yet when he describes the various Jewish books he had to study, he describes the Talmud as “the ancient [and] now obsolete Jewish books of jurisprudence…” The Talmud is a very important collection of oral traditions explaining how to interpret Jewish laws, and is believed by Orthodox Jews to have been passed down from God to Moses. http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm#Talmud So for a former Orthodox Jew to describe the Talmud as “obsolete” is rather strange! Levinson also points out other problems, such as how Rabbi Stern describes Jewish school inaccurately.
Failure of basic facts
If you run into a preacher that claims to be an ex-member of Anton LaVey‘s Church of Satan, ask them if they can name some of the 9 Satanic statements, the 9 Satanic sins, or the 11 Satanic rules of Earth. These are some of the basic beliefs of LaVeyan Satanism and can easily be read on their website. http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Theory.html They are not kept secret from outsiders. If the preacher can’t name them or treats them as if they were teachings that only the initiated could know, they’re likely just pulling your leg. You can do this to check if the narrator really knows what they are talking about. One egregious example of this is former child actor Kirk Cameron, an atheist convert to fundamentalist Christianity. He claims to have once been a strong believer in evolution when he was young, but whenever he describes evolution on TV appearances or in debates, he uses the straw man caricature of evolution that creationists propagate, claiming that chimera creatures such as a crocoduck would be proof of evolution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY6pKsBR8UQ A lesser known conversion story rife with errors is that of Athet Pyan Shinthaw Paulu, a Buddhist convert to Christianity whose story is usually used by evangelists proselytizing in Eastern countries. Paulu claimed to be a Buddhist monk in Burma who had died after being infected with Yellow Fever and Malaria at the same time. He miraculously came back to life three days later and described having a vision of hell while he was unconscious. Some Buddhist websites such as this one http://www.buddha.sg/htm/general/faq01.htm and some Christian ones too http://web.archive.org/web/20110216.....TICLE-0036.htm chronicle Paulu’s multiple errors, such as pointing out that Yellow Fever doesn’t exist in Burma. Paulu even got his own monk title wrong!
Another thing to beware of are conversion stories that repeat debunked urban legends, such as the claim that Harry Potter is causing multitudes of people to convert to Satanism (the source for this claim is actually a parody article from the Onion which some people mistook to be real), that the Proctor and Gamble corporation symbol is satanic, or that the FCC is going to ban religious broadcasting. The website Snopes http://www.snopes.com/ takes apart a lot of these urban legends and rumors. Also beware if the narrator touts pious frauds as authentic, such as fraudulent faith healers or forged religious artifacts or documents like the Archko Volumes. (fake documents concerning Jesus allegedly from Caiaphas and Pontius Pilate)
False self-aggrandizing claims or claims of expertise or authority they don‘t really have
This will be familiar to those of you that follow the evolution/creationism conflict. A Young Earth Creationist who claims to be an “expert” in science (eg “Dr.” Kent Hovind) touting credentials that actually came from a diploma mill or are irrelevant to biology. Some authors of fake conversion stories will exaggerate their personal achievements to sound more impressive and endear their audience. Tony Anthony for instance said that he was a three times Kung Fu world champion. Investigators looking into his past could not find any evidence for this claim, and Anthony ridiculously countered that the tournaments he participated in were so specialized within China that the outside world wouldn’t know about them. But as stated above, the discovery that he was plagiarizing martial arts websites cast strong doubts to how much he really knew about Kung Fu.
Speakers or authors that once served in the military might exaggerate or lie about their service. Father John Corapi, a popular Catholic speaker and a former member of the Society of Our Lady of the Most Holy Trinity (SOLT), used to say in his conversion story that he was a Green Beret in Vietnam. Corapi’s claims about his military service were challenged by the POW Network, an organization which investigates people who falsely claim to be POWs or lie about their military records, and found that he had never served in the Green Berets. (their page on Father Corapi seems to have been taken down, however it is preserved on the Wayback Machine http://web.archive.org/web/20120206.....phonies344.htm ) Corapi’s online biographies then quietly removed his Green Beret claim and when Corapi re-told his conversion story, he’d say he served in Vietnam without mentioning the Green Berets. Since then, in 2011 he resigned from SOLT after accusations of sexual misconduct, drug use, and violating his vow of poverty. http://soltnews.blogspot.com/2011/0.....hn-corapi.html
In regard to ex-occultist conversions, the narrator might claim to be a credible expert on the occult because they once held an exalted position such as being a satanic high priest. (the Church of Satan’s founder Anton LaVey once joked, “where are all the low priests?”) For instance, Doreen Irvine claimed in From Witchcraft to Christ that she ascended in the ranks amongst her fellow witches and was elected the Black Witch Queen, although she doesn’t describe what kind of duties her position entailed. They might also claim to be a friend or relative of an infamous non-believer. This does happen in real life sometimes, such as atheist Madalyn Murray O’Hair‘s son William, who converted to Christianity, and the late Christopher Hitchen’s brother Peter, who also became Christian. But amongst real cases there are bogus ones as well. Jess LaVey was one such faker, who falsely claimed to be a long lost son of Anton LaVey who left Satanism for Christianity after years of abuse from his father. http://www.charismamag.com/site-arc.....prove-identity
Evidence that the conversion never happened…
… because the person was a believer to begin with and made the whole thing up. This is one you should be very careful with. It’s annoying to hear Christians automatically dismiss people that de-converted as not being “true-Christians” or atheists say that people who convert to a religion weren’t really non-believers. But sometimes evidence may compel the conclusion that a conversion story is totally bogus and the narrator never changed their religion to begin with. As mentioned above people like Lauren Stratford had made up their conversions completely. But I’d like to mention a more contemporary story for this section as well.
An recent example would be the conversion story of Megan Hodder, http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/fea.....e-me-to-faith/ a claimed former atheist convert to Catholicism. In her conversion story she says she used to be a large fan of “new-atheists” such as Dawkins and Harris when she was young, but began considering Catholicism after reading one of Pope Benedict XVI’s works and eventually converted. Ophelia Benson on Free Thought Blogs saw Hodder’s story and mocking responded with a short blog post entitled “Saved by Ratzinger.” A short time later some of the commenters on Benson’s blog decided to go through Hodder’s old Twitter feeds and Facebook postings to see if they could find any atheist writings by her. But instead they found that she was already Catholic before her “conversion.” http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterf.....comment-560902
Phoney conspiracy theories
Of all the warning signs on this list, I would say this is probably the biggest one. Claims of conspiracy theories tend to be the most audacious, inciting fear of shadowy forces with massive numbers of people behind them that are out to control everyone. For some reason, religious fundamentalism and conspiracy theorists tend to go hand-in-hand. (Jerri Massi, author of Blog on the Way, a blog on opposing abuse in churches, has two articles explaining why this might be so http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=4057 ) Mike Warnke and numerous alleged ex-Satanists such as John Todd would claim that Satanists were in league with secret societies like the Illuminati and the New World Order, and were manipulating events all around the world. Fake conspiracy theories like these are yet another way to vilify other religions (or any group which the narrator dislikes for that matter). They’re also dangerous because they tend to rely on every logical fallacy imaginable in order to support themselves (confirmation bias, contrived ad hoc hypotheses, and so on) and self sealing argumentation which can be used as an easy get-out-of-jail card to dismiss any criticism. If people doubt the validity of a conversion story, the narrator can say doubters are all part of a conspiracy against them. If a conversion story is said to portray other religions inaccurately, the narrator can just say there’s a conspiracy covering up the “real” beliefs and practices of other religions. If there’s a lack if evidence supporting the existence of underground occult groups and their plots to rule the world, the narrator will say there‘s a conspiracy covering up their activities. (and may even invoke the old saying “the greatest trick the devil ever pulled is convincing people he doesn‘t exist”) The irony of many of these conspiracy theories is that they’re not really secret at all; searching “satanic conspiracy” or similar keywords on the web will give you tons of websites explaining many of these conspiracies in great detail. A cartoon on Sci-ence.org entitled The Red Flags of Quackery parodies the non-secrecy of these “secret” conspiracies quite well, “There is a world-wide plot to hide the truth. But it‘s okay, I looked on Google and unraveled the hell out of it.” If these conspiracy theories really were true, one has to wonder why these shadowy groups even allow people like Warnke and Todd to speak out against them and divulge their plans in front of large audiences of people.
Further Reading
Swallowing the Camel’s The Prodigal Witch series, which debunks many alleged ex-Satanists and ex-witches I mentioned, such as Mike Warnke. http://swallowingthecamel.wordpress.....rodigal-witch/
Against Satanic Panics, a website that chronicles the history of Satanic Ritual Abuse and the consequences of media sensations over the false stories of SRA.
http://theisticsatanism.com/asp/index.html
What’s The Harm article on people that were hurt by false Satanic Ritual Abuse allegations.
http://whatstheharm.net/satanicritualabuse.html
Stop Bad Therapy on Satanic Ritual Abuse and myths about recovering repressed memories.
http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/myths/sra.shtml
http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/myths/repress.shtml
The American Psychological Association on repressed memories of childhood abuse. Although it’s not related to satanic ritual abuse, the information here is still useful.
http://www.apa.org/topics/trauma/memories.aspx
Sneaky, Sneaky!
Posted 10 years agoSo, I was on my way to watch what I THOUGHT was an intelligent video, but no. Not even half way through, I realized it was a set up. But Christians weren't shouting, so I thought "Hey, maybe this is worth a watch. Atheists and Christians getting along? Sure I'll watch!" But then I was stabbed in the end by Ray Comfort. Soooo... Yeah. I feel betrayed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ
Here's the problem with their "No Evidence" method: They should count to 50,000,000,000. Start with one, then two, and so on. It IS possible, but they don't have TIME. This is EXACTLY what this guy is ordering these students to do. Things DO change "kinds", but it takes TIME. You want something NOW? Well, it's not going to happen in front of your eyes. Just like I'm not going to sit and wait for you to reach the number I gave.
Not going to lie, a tiny, miniscule little flicker of "maybe" popped into my head for a moment during this. But it was swiftly snuffed when the "interviewer" started going all sappy and started into the whole "Jesus died for you" bit.
Here's what I would have asked him: "Why did he NEED to die?" Seriously. Your god is supposed to be this all-powerful being. Could he not change his own rules if he's so loving and wants us all tohave cake be in heaven?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ
Here's the problem with their "No Evidence" method: They should count to 50,000,000,000. Start with one, then two, and so on. It IS possible, but they don't have TIME. This is EXACTLY what this guy is ordering these students to do. Things DO change "kinds", but it takes TIME. You want something NOW? Well, it's not going to happen in front of your eyes. Just like I'm not going to sit and wait for you to reach the number I gave.
Not going to lie, a tiny, miniscule little flicker of "maybe" popped into my head for a moment during this. But it was swiftly snuffed when the "interviewer" started going all sappy and started into the whole "Jesus died for you" bit.
Here's what I would have asked him: "Why did he NEED to die?" Seriously. Your god is supposed to be this all-powerful being. Could he not change his own rules if he's so loving and wants us all to
Trailer: "God's [Not] Dead" (He Was Never Alive!)
Posted 10 years agoYes, Fellow Heathens, THIS is happening now. Unfortunately, there is a new christian movie coming out next year called "God's Not Dead". To this title, I'd like to ask "Which god, sir?" Of course by the content, we can see that they do mean whatever version of the christian god that suits the viewer's fancy. The certainly don't mean the god of their precious bible. How do we know this? They won't answer the big question with scripture verses. By the big question, I mean the one they focus on. The one they ask us time and time again and yet they will never hear our answer.
"Why Do You Hate God?"
Christians- YOU NEVER STICK AROUND TO HEAR OUR ANSWER ON THIS. Every single time, you either realize what you've said and move on to some other question, or ignore the answer when it is preceded by the necessary response; "Well, first you'd have to assume a god is real, then you'd have to determine wether it's your god, but let's just give you those arguments for right now so I can answer your question..." And now you're far too angry to hear what we have to say.
Let us rephrase your question so that we can get to the answer in a timely manner.
"Why Do You Hate The God Of The Christian Bible?
THERE! Now we can answer with absolutely no need for prior argument granting. Here are our answers.
Exodus 12:29-30
Exodus 21:7-11
Exodus 21:15
Exodus 22:19
Exodus 31:12-15
Exodus 32:26-29
Numbers 1:48-51
Numbers 25:1-9
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
Deuteronomy 17:12
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Leviticus 20:9
Leviticus 20:13
Leviticus 24:10-16
Leviticus 26:21-22
1 Samuel 6:19-20
2 Samuel 6:3-7
2 Samuel 12:11-14
Zechariah 14:1-2
Proverbs 20:20
2 Chronicles 15:12-13
Romans 1:24-32
1 Kings 14:9-16
1 Kings 20:35-36
2 Kings 2:23-24
Isaiah 13:15-18
Isaiah 14:21
Hosea 9:11-16
Ezekiel 9:5-7
Ezekiel 35:7-9
Jeremiah 15:1-4
Jeremiah 48:10
Jeremiah 50:21-22
Joshua 7:19-26
There's plenty more, but I think you get the idea.
And PLEASE- Before you start shouting "CONTEXT!! CONTEXT!!!!" answer me something- In what context is SLAVERY, RAPE, and PILLAGING ever a GOOD idea?
Sorry I've been typing like I'm talking to a christian. I've just had this argument on my mind for far too long. -.-;
"Why Do You Hate God?"
Christians- YOU NEVER STICK AROUND TO HEAR OUR ANSWER ON THIS. Every single time, you either realize what you've said and move on to some other question, or ignore the answer when it is preceded by the necessary response; "Well, first you'd have to assume a god is real, then you'd have to determine wether it's your god, but let's just give you those arguments for right now so I can answer your question..." And now you're far too angry to hear what we have to say.
Let us rephrase your question so that we can get to the answer in a timely manner.
"Why Do You Hate The God Of The Christian Bible?
THERE! Now we can answer with absolutely no need for prior argument granting. Here are our answers.
Exodus 12:29-30
Exodus 21:7-11
Exodus 21:15
Exodus 22:19
Exodus 31:12-15
Exodus 32:26-29
Numbers 1:48-51
Numbers 25:1-9
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
Deuteronomy 17:12
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Leviticus 20:9
Leviticus 20:13
Leviticus 24:10-16
Leviticus 26:21-22
1 Samuel 6:19-20
2 Samuel 6:3-7
2 Samuel 12:11-14
Zechariah 14:1-2
Proverbs 20:20
2 Chronicles 15:12-13
Romans 1:24-32
1 Kings 14:9-16
1 Kings 20:35-36
2 Kings 2:23-24
Isaiah 13:15-18
Isaiah 14:21
Hosea 9:11-16
Ezekiel 9:5-7
Ezekiel 35:7-9
Jeremiah 15:1-4
Jeremiah 48:10
Jeremiah 50:21-22
Joshua 7:19-26
There's plenty more, but I think you get the idea.
And PLEASE- Before you start shouting "CONTEXT!! CONTEXT!!!!" answer me something- In what context is SLAVERY, RAPE, and PILLAGING ever a GOOD idea?
Sorry I've been typing like I'm talking to a christian. I've just had this argument on my mind for far too long. -.-;
Notable Atheists and Anti-Theists
Posted 10 years agoWhile no one will ever claim that Atheists have any sort of hierarchy, we do look up to those of us who have the eyes of many upon us, namely scientists, philosophers, comedians, and actors. So, it's a good idea to have a list in order to show how we've grown through history and through modern times. Anyone is welcome to add to this list. I only ask that you add a video, image, short quote, or resource so we can have an idea of what they've contributed to the world of reality. (I'll be working on this myself over time.)
Actors and Comedians
Morgan Freeman
Stephen Fry
Larry King
Keira Knightley
Hugh Laurie
Bruce Lee
Sir Ian McKellen
Daniel Radcliffe
Rowan Atkinson
Lewis Black
George Carlin
Jimmy Carr
Pat Condell
Billy Connolly
Ricky Gervais
Kathy Griffin
Eddie Izzard
Seth MacFarlane
Bill Maher
Dylan Moran
Patton Oswalt
Joe Rogan
Philosophers and Scientists
Richard Dawkins
Penn Jillette
Stephen Hawking
Christopher Hitchens
Carl Sagan
David Hume
Robert Ingersoll
Lawrence Krause
Actors and Comedians
Morgan Freeman
Stephen Fry
Larry King
Keira Knightley
Hugh Laurie
Bruce Lee
Sir Ian McKellen
Daniel Radcliffe
Rowan Atkinson
Lewis Black
George Carlin
Jimmy Carr
Pat Condell
Billy Connolly
Ricky Gervais
Kathy Griffin
Eddie Izzard
Seth MacFarlane
Bill Maher
Dylan Moran
Patton Oswalt
Joe Rogan
Philosophers and Scientists
Richard Dawkins
Penn Jillette
Stephen Hawking
Christopher Hitchens
Carl Sagan
David Hume
Robert Ingersoll
Lawrence Krause
Church of the Smiling Vagina - Comedian Jamie Kilstein
Posted 10 years agoI just heard this on Sirius XM's RawDog Comedy Channel. It's just SO AMAZING that I HAD to share!
"I think we should start out own church. I was thinking we could call it The Church of the Smiling Vagina.
For three Reasons
-It makes me laugh
-Somebody already started a Facebook group
-Nothin pisses off religious people more than satisfied vaginas. It's true! Read the books!
So... I wrote the commandments:
10.) Thou shalt not screw children.
Oh, that's easy! Smiling Vaginas don't screw children, they raise children to be open and educated towards sex so that when the child grows up, they're not so repressed that any time they see a hole, they have to screw it!
9.) If a Danish cartoonist draws a smiling vagina, we will laugh and giggle.
Because smiling vaginas are freaking hilarious. Also most of our converts are too high to build effigies and the only violent thing they have ever done was accidentally step on their box set of Lost while trying to find their lighter in the dark.
8.) We will not meet at a certain time at a certain destination.
In fact, we will never meet because we have grown up shit to do. (Like re-watching every season of Lost. It's not over, is it?!)
7.) We will not spend money on billion dollar churches because there are too many people who don't have homes.
So maybe we don't need a giant feel-good place to validate our freaking beliefs.
"Well, Jesus must have turned water into wine because this giant building with stained glass windows is so pretty!"
What? Are you 9?
Because there are people freezing to death and I'm pretty sure that if Jesus was real, he would turn this giant homophobe factory into a homeless shelter and let people sleep in the pews which is what everybody wants to do on Sunday anyway!
6.) We will not steal from other artists, activists, or good-hearted people, but we will fuck over the rich like it's our job!
The ones who make millions on Wall Street, taking homes away from the middle class or denying health insurance to the poor. We will turn them into the homeless they mock in a comic book like V for Vendetta style coup! If we see a Hummer, we will key it so badly, it'll look like a wolverine just made it its whore, and then wait till the owner comes out and as he goes to call the police, take his wallet and give that money to someone who won't spend it on a giant planet-raping vag mobile!
5.) We will not wear giant hats!
Smiling Vaginas know that pope hats are freaking insane!
4.) Our list of rules can be amended so that people living in the 21st century don't have to act like cave men.
Because if you want to take the bible seriously, that means you can go to hell for working on the sabbath or go to hell for eating shellfish, and you can sell your daughter into prostitution.
Even though that works out nicely for lazy people, perverts, and shellfish, I would rather know that those rules can be amended.
3.) Be nice to people!
Not because you want to get into heaven, or are afraid to go to hell, but because it is the right thing to do!
2.) Screw you!
We don't need a number 2!
1.) We realize that there is no such thing as a smiling vagina!
Instead of worshiping a daddy figure we so clearly lack, we will make out own choices, fight out own battles, turn into the people we want to be! We will fall in love not because god placed us together like some voyeuristic matchmaker who likes watching strangers screw, but because we found each other!
We have heard enough of our friends who say "it was god who put us together" or "destiny" or "fate", "Isn't that romantic?"
No! It's freaking boring!
If your relationship was pre-determined, that means you would have had to do nothing to find the person you love! That means you could have just stood there for decades and eventually she'd be like "You?" and you'd be like "You? Yeah, okay" and then you'd march off into sad land.
It is so much more romantic that you two found each other. There are over 6 billion people on this planet and if you find one person you want to spend the rest of your life with, if you can find someone that you can spend more than 20 freaking minutes with on this miserable planet, it's a god damned miracle.
You did that!
God didn't do it!
You deserve the credit.
Those are my commandments." - Jamie Kilstein (Album "Libel, Slander & Sedition" 2011)
"I think we should start out own church. I was thinking we could call it The Church of the Smiling Vagina.
For three Reasons
-It makes me laugh
-Somebody already started a Facebook group
-Nothin pisses off religious people more than satisfied vaginas. It's true! Read the books!
So... I wrote the commandments:
10.) Thou shalt not screw children.
Oh, that's easy! Smiling Vaginas don't screw children, they raise children to be open and educated towards sex so that when the child grows up, they're not so repressed that any time they see a hole, they have to screw it!
9.) If a Danish cartoonist draws a smiling vagina, we will laugh and giggle.
Because smiling vaginas are freaking hilarious. Also most of our converts are too high to build effigies and the only violent thing they have ever done was accidentally step on their box set of Lost while trying to find their lighter in the dark.
8.) We will not meet at a certain time at a certain destination.
In fact, we will never meet because we have grown up shit to do. (Like re-watching every season of Lost. It's not over, is it?!)
7.) We will not spend money on billion dollar churches because there are too many people who don't have homes.
So maybe we don't need a giant feel-good place to validate our freaking beliefs.
"Well, Jesus must have turned water into wine because this giant building with stained glass windows is so pretty!"
What? Are you 9?
Because there are people freezing to death and I'm pretty sure that if Jesus was real, he would turn this giant homophobe factory into a homeless shelter and let people sleep in the pews which is what everybody wants to do on Sunday anyway!
6.) We will not steal from other artists, activists, or good-hearted people, but we will fuck over the rich like it's our job!
The ones who make millions on Wall Street, taking homes away from the middle class or denying health insurance to the poor. We will turn them into the homeless they mock in a comic book like V for Vendetta style coup! If we see a Hummer, we will key it so badly, it'll look like a wolverine just made it its whore, and then wait till the owner comes out and as he goes to call the police, take his wallet and give that money to someone who won't spend it on a giant planet-raping vag mobile!
5.) We will not wear giant hats!
Smiling Vaginas know that pope hats are freaking insane!
4.) Our list of rules can be amended so that people living in the 21st century don't have to act like cave men.
Because if you want to take the bible seriously, that means you can go to hell for working on the sabbath or go to hell for eating shellfish, and you can sell your daughter into prostitution.
Even though that works out nicely for lazy people, perverts, and shellfish, I would rather know that those rules can be amended.
3.) Be nice to people!
Not because you want to get into heaven, or are afraid to go to hell, but because it is the right thing to do!
2.) Screw you!
We don't need a number 2!
1.) We realize that there is no such thing as a smiling vagina!
Instead of worshiping a daddy figure we so clearly lack, we will make out own choices, fight out own battles, turn into the people we want to be! We will fall in love not because god placed us together like some voyeuristic matchmaker who likes watching strangers screw, but because we found each other!
We have heard enough of our friends who say "it was god who put us together" or "destiny" or "fate", "Isn't that romantic?"
No! It's freaking boring!
If your relationship was pre-determined, that means you would have had to do nothing to find the person you love! That means you could have just stood there for decades and eventually she'd be like "You?" and you'd be like "You? Yeah, okay" and then you'd march off into sad land.
It is so much more romantic that you two found each other. There are over 6 billion people on this planet and if you find one person you want to spend the rest of your life with, if you can find someone that you can spend more than 20 freaking minutes with on this miserable planet, it's a god damned miracle.
You did that!
God didn't do it!
You deserve the credit.
Those are my commandments." - Jamie Kilstein (Album "Libel, Slander & Sedition" 2011)
Anti-Theist Atheists
Posted 10 years agoAnti-Theist Atheists are comparable to a person that discovers that Santa Clause is not real for the first time, and wishes to inform all his friends who still believe in him, of the truth.
Religious People on the other hand, are afraid of getting coal in their stockings instead of presents, so they continue to believe, and spread that belief of Santa in hopes for more presents.
~ Unknown
Although a funny analogy, it doesn't cover everything. Which, in all honesty, no one should really expect that of an analogy, particularly a short one. However, there are important aspects to keep in mind. An Anti-Theist is also (often) angry at his parents and/or his community for feeding him the lie in the first place. And the religious also have the gaul to point out to some specific children that they don't get presents because of their actions, which Santa might find displeasing.
The floor is open for crazy analogies of both parties.
Floor Rules:
No name-calling, but no whining (these are analogies, after all).
No in depth discussions (debating of three or more conversations in one reply- this is a lighter topic).
No line dancing.
No disco.
Breakdancing is encouraged. :)
Religious People on the other hand, are afraid of getting coal in their stockings instead of presents, so they continue to believe, and spread that belief of Santa in hopes for more presents.
~ Unknown
Although a funny analogy, it doesn't cover everything. Which, in all honesty, no one should really expect that of an analogy, particularly a short one. However, there are important aspects to keep in mind. An Anti-Theist is also (often) angry at his parents and/or his community for feeding him the lie in the first place. And the religious also have the gaul to point out to some specific children that they don't get presents because of their actions, which Santa might find displeasing.
The floor is open for crazy analogies of both parties.
Floor Rules:
No name-calling, but no whining (these are analogies, after all).
No in depth discussions (debating of three or more conversations in one reply- this is a lighter topic).
No line dancing.
No disco.
Breakdancing is encouraged. :)